Are we getting left behind?

  • @tastiger said in Are we getting left behind?:

    I know I have said it before, that we should have moved to dynamic clothing by now, after all it's been available since Poser 5, but here we are and DAZ is pumping out dForce clothing like there is no tomorrow, I just get the feeling we are getting left behind when it comes to clothing...


    There's plenty of Dynamic clothing out there. We're NOT being left behind. The main difference in D-Force clothing and Poser Dynamics is that D-Force, I believe, uses hybrid clothing or partially conforming clothing. The other difference is that D-Force is a physics engine. Poser does have Bullet physics and it can do pretty much whatever D-Force does, but people find it intimidating.

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  • I mainly use dynamic cloth and won't think twice in converting conforming clothes to dynamic (doesn't always work). Saves a lot of money when I can use a conforming V3 item to use as dynamic on V4 (sometimes with a little tweaking with morph brush) The problem I see with dynamic cloth is that it typically tends to be the all the same. My runtimes are full of dynamic dresses and skirts with little to differentiate it from each other. The hard part is once you move beyond dresses, skirts, and shirts is getting belts, straps, buttons and other pieces behave as they should and having everything not just fall apart, or suddenly having some random vertex deciding it wants to see whats on the upper corner of the screen.

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    I love dynamic clothes. Always wonder why Poser user fear the cloth room.
    But yes, I have plans for more dynamic outfits, or let say hybrid.

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    @eclark1849 Yes, thank you. I have to admit , I am since weeks , months , not very active in Forums. I usually love to read over the HW forums, write very rarely.
    I will read me trough. Thank you :)

  • There is a short answer though. Poser users want the Cloth Room to be magic. In other words, they want it to just work!!!! IF something goes wrong, it's never the user's fault, although it's usually ALWAYS the user's fault. :) They see engines like the MD engine working flawlessly and they want Poser's to work like that too.

  • The reason people fear the cloth room is 3 fold....

    1. When Poser 5 was released, most people didn’t have the horsepower to run the cloth room. People still think this, but any recent computer is fine.

    2. The interface is cryptic. If the new team has any sense, they will rework the interface. (IMO, this is the biggest thing holding the cloth room back.)

    3. The Luddites are hellbent that they aren’t going to abandon the Poser 4 workflow. There aren’t that many, but they are very loud.

  • They don’t what it to be magic. The current version is slow and has a terrible usability. What users of a paid application do and can expect is some updates and improvements but its still the same since ever.

  • @eclark1849 said in Are we getting left behind?:

    There is a short answer though. Poser users want the Cloth Room to be magic. In other words, they want it to just work!!!! IF something goes wrong, it's never the user's fault, although it's usually ALWAYS the user's fault. :) They see engines like the MD engine working flawlessly and they want Poser's to work like that too.

    Given that I've worked with both Marvelous Designer and more recently DAZ dForce, I can add some observations to this that would give what I consider to be constructive criticism about where Poser's Cloth Room can be improved. There ARE major differences, mostly relating to cloth behavior and how different fabric materials are handled.

    Both DAZ Studio and Marvelous Designer allow you to assign different cloth properties BY MATERIAL. This is not the case in Poser. The entire garment in Poser will have the same cloth properties. While you can control things somewhat by using constrained and soft decorated groups, there are only one of each of those.

    But say you have a layered garment where the base garment is made of satin, but it has sheer sleeves and an overskirt that are supposed to be made of a really flowy transparent fabric like organza or something light and sheer like that. The satin and the sheer fabrics will behave differently. One fabric will fold and drape less than the other. In MD and DS, each material gets its own properties, giving them a slight advantage in realism.

    Given that the cloth behavior is assigned by material in the competitor's products, you can also specify materials that don't simulate at all, or which simulate less than other areas. For example, select the button material, and turn off dynamics for that. They will stay rigid. Select the belt and allow it to be 25% dynamic instead of 100%. That will help it stick around the waist a little better instead of falling down lower until it gets stuck at the hip.

    Someone also mentioned that DS clothing is a hybrid between conforming and dynamic. Yes, that's true, but hybrid clothing can also be used in Poser. But it's not quite as straightforward, again because of the limitations in how Poser handles materials.

    Case in point. If you have a long dress, and if the bottom of the dress is assigned to a "skirt" material, you can make only the skirt dynamic in the cloth room and leave everything else conforming. The only thing is, if that Poser garment also has drapy sleeves, you'll also have to create a second simulation for one sleeve, and a third simulation for the other sleeve. That's three times the calculations, where it would only be one in the competitor's products.

    In the thread you pointed to at Hivewire, it also brought up the topic of how Marvelous Designer would increase the mesh density if a skirt was made longer, or if the garment was resized for a larger figure. That is a consideration too.

    Easiest way to explain it is ... you have a very petite female with a flatter chest, and you have another tall figure with a very large chest and a more voluptuous body shape. In the real world, the larger woman would never be able to wear a cotton shirt made for the petite female. Why? Needs more fabric to create the dress. In Marvelous Designer, you make the 2D pattern larger in the areas you need to enlarge them. The fabric creates more polygons to maintain the same fabric density on the larger pattern piece, and they both flow the same and the textures don't stretch.

    So there's a lot more involved than just user experience nowadays. Though Poser's cloth room is pretty cool, there actually MAY be technical reasons why it won't behave exactly the same as in MD or DS. Hope this clarifies some of the reasons where Poser's cloth room could be improved and enhanced. Again, this post is meant as constructive, not destructive.

  • To avoid confusion, I should clarify that you have to assign different simulation properties by GROUP in Poser. Can’t assign by material, which would be the preferred option.

  • @Deecey
    i mostly agree with what you say, except that poser cloth room does allow for multiple fabrics in the form of different dynamic groups.
    Also I would not say MD does increase the mesh density if a skirt is made longer. It actually maintains the density (and add polygons) whereas traditional modelers would reduce the density (= make polygons larger).
    For the rest perfectly OK.

    A possible solution is dual mode clothing, with one body part rig (Vilters'method) , clothified, and vertices assigned to 'choreographed' or 'constrained' where conforming and to a dynamic group where simulated.

  • @F_Verbaas

    Yeah I misstated there. I should have said increases the polygon count, not the density. Sometimes my fingers work faster than my brain. LOL But you knew what I meant anyway! LOL

    But getting back to needing multiple simulations to accomplish the same thing. You'll run into that when you try to convert conforming clothing to dynamic. Since Poser's cloth room only allows you to simulate by GROUP instead of by MATERIAL, you run into issues with things like drapy sleeves. You may actually need to create different simulations for the shoulders and the forearms for the sleeves to drape properly. So now you're talking 5 simulations for a long dress with drapy sleeves (skirt group, L and R Shoulder groups, and L and R forearm groups).


  • @Deecey You can do it in one simulation. Just create a new dynamic group, edit the group and add the desired material.

  • @adp

    LMAO OMG you're right. It's been so long since I've even used the cloth room I forgot about that. OK, disregard that mixup. That makes a whole world of difference then.

    Maybe I should read the manual I wrote LMAO!!!!!!!

  • You can have multiple groups(body parts) in hybrid clothing, ie both sleeves, clothified in the same simulation.

    As for setting up groups for different material properties, you can create the dynamic groups by selecting add> material>name of material in the grouping tool. The problem is when a creator doesn't include separate material groups and either relies on a mask or just the image map.

    While people not buying stuff is one reason it isn't taking off, another is vendors don't want to change their modeling habits. Some have stated this. Everything needs to be welded. You can't model a dress and then model a separate ruffle and expect it to work in the cloth room. I have a layered skirt that the 2nd layer only goes to just under the top layer, not to the waistband. You can guess what happens in the cloth room.

  • @redphantom

    Yes I stand corrected. It's been a very very long time since I've used the cloth room on a regular basis and I got myself totally confused. How embarassing.

    After many years of tech writing I am finally getting back into actually using all this stuff on a more regular basis, something I didn't have time to do before. My, how content creation has changed in the last ten years. LOL

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    @Deecey Agree. I use the cloth room since it get implemented in Poser. Really like the result, from the beginning.
    But now it is time for a major update.
    Something which can handle as example buttons better.Double layered dress. Which is now a real pain in the b...

  • I do love the Cloth Room in Poser, and I learned to love it even more during the last year or so. Yes, it does have a parameter interface designed by programmers for programmers, but that can be shortcut by using EZCloth. Once you stored the cloth parameter presets for standard fabrics there, you never have to worry about that again.

    Did you know that you can turn (almost) every conforming skirt and dress into a dynamic one without any effort at all? Just select the skirt part (sometimes just labelled "Hip") and treat it in the Cloth Room like any other dynamic cloth. If it disintegrates and slips down the hips, you have to add a constrained group at the waist.

    Want to turn any conforming clothing into dynamic? Here's how:

    1. Find the location of the .obj file that the conforming clothing is actually made of.
    2. Import this obj in Poser.
    3. Parent it to the characters shoulders (for clothes with a top) or hip (for skirts and trousers).
    4. In frame 1, place the cloth on your character in zero position. The cloth must be completely outside the body, no intersections. Scale the cloth to fit your character. You may have to bend some limbs of the character, though. If you have a big (or busty) character, you can make it thinner by using some body morphs (e.g. "Thin" or "Emaciated" with V4).
    5. In your last frame (e.g. 30) make your desired final pose of the character. Here you can apply the desired body morphs.
    6. In the Cloth Room, clothify your imported cloth. If you "inflate" your character a lot between frame 1 and 30, remember to give the cloth a low enough stretch resistance. As mentioned above, you may have to add small polygonal areas of constrained groups if the cloth slides down the body.
    7. Click on "Calculate Simulation".
    8. Behold the awesomeness.

    There is one strange effect, though, that I noticed with cloth simulation: Sometimes the cloth does not collide with an object (e.g. a chair), even if I explicitely added it to the "Collide against" list. I have no clue why that happens. But there is an easy workaround:
    Just create a box or some other primitive that is shaped like the object in question and place it where you need it. For simulating a character with a skirt sitting down on a chair, I create a box and align it with the seating. Then I add the box to the collision list, run the simulation and delete the box afterwards.

  • @manfromabora
    That was what I was getting at, I should have phrased my OP a little more eloquently, what Poser dynamic cloth is out there isn't a really great variety in styles, so it's limited in that respect. I am looking to using dynamics a lot more since I have started doing more animations, where dynamics comes into it's own. there is nothing worse than having poke-through on an knee or something about 1/4 of the way through a 1900 or more frame video, I also agree with others that a lot of clothing being turned out is still stuck in Poser 4 workflow, and I just feel it's time to move on.

    .... and I wish they would fix this darn forum so it displays properly in Firefox... Nearly need a telescope to read it