Are we getting left behind?



  • I do love the Cloth Room in Poser, and I learned to love it even more during the last year or so. Yes, it does have a parameter interface designed by programmers for programmers, but that can be shortcut by using EZCloth. Once you stored the cloth parameter presets for standard fabrics there, you never have to worry about that again.

    Did you know that you can turn (almost) every conforming skirt and dress into a dynamic one without any effort at all? Just select the skirt part (sometimes just labelled "Hip") and treat it in the Cloth Room like any other dynamic cloth. If it disintegrates and slips down the hips, you have to add a constrained group at the waist.

    Want to turn any conforming clothing into dynamic? Here's how:

    1. Find the location of the .obj file that the conforming clothing is actually made of.
    2. Import this obj in Poser.
    3. Parent it to the characters shoulders (for clothes with a top) or hip (for skirts and trousers).
    4. In frame 1, place the cloth on your character in zero position. The cloth must be completely outside the body, no intersections. Scale the cloth to fit your character. You may have to bend some limbs of the character, though. If you have a big (or busty) character, you can make it thinner by using some body morphs (e.g. "Thin" or "Emaciated" with V4).
    5. In your last frame (e.g. 30) make your desired final pose of the character. Here you can apply the desired body morphs.
    6. In the Cloth Room, clothify your imported cloth. If you "inflate" your character a lot between frame 1 and 30, remember to give the cloth a low enough stretch resistance. As mentioned above, you may have to add small polygonal areas of constrained groups if the cloth slides down the body.
    7. Click on "Calculate Simulation".
    8. Behold the awesomeness.

    There is one strange effect, though, that I noticed with cloth simulation: Sometimes the cloth does not collide with an object (e.g. a chair), even if I explicitely added it to the "Collide against" list. I have no clue why that happens. But there is an easy workaround:
    Just create a box or some other primitive that is shaped like the object in question and place it where you need it. For simulating a character with a skirt sitting down on a chair, I create a box and align it with the seating. Then I add the box to the collision list, run the simulation and delete the box afterwards.



  • @manfromabora
    That was what I was getting at, I should have phrased my OP a little more eloquently, what Poser dynamic cloth is out there isn't a really great variety in styles, so it's limited in that respect. I am looking to using dynamics a lot more since I have started doing more animations, where dynamics comes into it's own. there is nothing worse than having poke-through on an knee or something about 1/4 of the way through a 1900 or more frame video, I also agree with others that a lot of clothing being turned out is still stuck in Poser 4 workflow, and I just feel it's time to move on.

    .... and I wish they would fix this darn forum so it displays properly in Firefox... Nearly need a telescope to read it



  • You say we need more variety. What are you looking for? There are only so many shapes a shirt comes in unless you are looking for things you see on runways where the designers try to outdo each out in outrageousness and you end up with people wearing tables or bubble wrap. much of the wearable clothing is mostly the same shape with different colors/prints/fabric types. Pants are the same way. Dresses do have more variety, but unless people know what you're looking for, it's hard to make it. Or are you looking for period pieces?

    (and no, this isn't saying I'll make stuff people post. I might attempt it if I'm feeling adventurous, but considering I haven't finished my last modeling endeavor, Poser will probably be a few versions ahead by then.)



  • @oldenburg said in Are we getting left behind?:

    There is one strange effect, though, that I noticed with cloth simulation: Sometimes the cloth does not collide with an object (e.g. a chair), even if I explicitely added it to the "Collide against" list. I have no clue why that happens. But there is an easy workaround:
    Just create a box or some other primitive that is shaped like the object in question and place it where you need it. For simulating a character with a skirt sitting down on a chair, I create a box and align it with the seating. Then I add the box to the collision list, run the simulation and delete the box afterwards.

    Just adding a little thing I always do with chairs. I slide them in under the figure. So in Frame 1 they're behind the character and in frame 30, they're where they should be. This way 99% of dresses behave properly when colliding with the chair.



  • @trekkiegrrrl That's exactly what I did, but the simulation did completely ignore the chair. With the box sliding together with the chair, it worked like a charm. Maybe it was just a particular scenery where this happened, but I wanted to share this workaround anyway.



  • @oldenburg
    I THINK it has something to do with the density of whatever is used as collision. But I'm not sure. I have had "your problem" happening a few times, and used the dummy box, too.

    I was just pointing out that it is necessary to slide the "whatever" in from behind if the cloth is to look natural :)



  • @redphantom said in Are we getting left behind?:

    You say we need more variety. What are you looking for? There are only so many shapes a shirt comes in unless you are looking for things you see on runways where the designers try to outdo each out in outrageousness and you end up with people wearing tables or bubble wrap.

    I don't know something with a bit of class, some of the stuff that has been coming out in dForce stuff that is coming out. They have a fantastic wedding dress as well - hopefully this will give you an idea of the sort of stuff I'm looking for...
    alt text



  • @redphantom said in Are we getting left behind?:

    You say we need more variety. What are you looking for? There are only so many shapes a shirt comes in unless you are looking for things you see on runways where the designers tr

    OMG ... I used to watch stuff like "America's Next Top Model" and "Project Runway" for clothing ideas. One of my early ambitions was to be a fashion designer, so I love that kind of stuff. That's probably why I like tall skinnier figures too. They wear those styles so much better. 8-D



  • @tastiger

    Yeah that's nice



  • This is the wedding dress. There are also some poses for it https://www.daz3d.com/white-wedding-dforce-ready-poses-for-genesis-8-female
    alt text



  • I don't have much expectation from Poser for real-time clothing, but I'd feel much, much, much, much, much and infinitely much better if Poser had a layer attribute like Marvelous Designer does, so that the group on top would stay on top of the group in the bottom, all in a single pass.

    What kills my utilization of dynamic clothes in Poser is that the moment you have two superimposed clothes, there always a hooboobaboola of poking through between them. You can get a bit of control by separating simulations in a given order, and then making cloth B collide with cloth A (but not cloth A collide with B), but it's a pain to manage that, can't do if top and bottom parts are in the same cloth, and the already slow simulations are now twice as slow, plus I need to manually run the simulations in certain order. Very inefficient and unsatisfactory.



  • Poser has been left behind on dforce, strand hair, strand eye brows and fur, lighting, figures, interface, and more. The problem is, the market for cloth sim clothes on Poser figures is virtually zero because very few people use the default Poser characters and the program doesn't support Genesis, so the market for them does not justify the development costs. DAZ has done a superb job of leveraging DS to upsell its software based on the ever-evolving Genesis technology. Meanwhile SM is totally dependent upon Poser, and here we are 3.5 years between versions and counting. I see the work that is coming out of DS and even as an lifelong Poser advocate, it is clear that SM doesn't deserve market share any more. To say that they have missed the boat would be the understatement of the century.



  • @matb said in Are we getting left behind?:

    I see the work that is coming out of DS and even as an lifelong Poser advocate, it is clear that SM doesn't deserve market share any more. To say that they have missed the boat would be the understatement of the century.

    I'm afraid I have to agree, but I don't want to make the switch, I don't find Daz's offering to be very intuitive or maybe I'm just getting cranky in my old age.

    But I will say that creators (before the D|S onslaught) didn't take the bull by the horns and move away from the Poser 4 workflow, example in Poser 8 some creators were still using eye textures with reflections baked on. I'm not saying all creators but quite a few just stuck with the "it worked then, it will still work now" attitude. If they hadn't we most likely would not be in this situation.



  • @oldenburg
    The dress colliding with the box but not (visibly) colliding with the chair most likely is because the chair seat had the underside defined, so a dress vertex under the seat was in a 'legal' position or when between the seat top and the seat underside could move to a legal position by going under the seat.
    Thin objects like a seat do not work well as colliders. Always use objects that have sufficient thickness to prevent confusion for the vertices which is the side to go to. The box mentioned is a good example.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @matb I agree here. Sadly , in the past the Poser development focus on breadcrumbs. Poser 11 was a big hope for many Poser user and I know many was really disappointed after the release. Material room which was somehow "unfinish" not really cycles,missing nodes etc.
    The poser own world (dome) is a huge disappointment pure. Instead a proper world for HDRI based images, we got this strange construct. Lights, come on, we have 2018 and the basic lights are loading still with Deep map shadows?
    Camera, nothing new, old same like before.
    Superfly render engine is what I call a hybrid.They should implement the full cycles and not something between. Works way to slow, memory hungry .
    But for this we can write our name inside of Poser and measure our figures. :(
    Cloth room, material room, hair room , all need a major upgrade. OBJ file importer, split groups by import and export..the list goes on.
    Poser is not a cheap Software and for this money people want something which represent the 21 century and not 1980.
    A software which work seamlessly with others together without huge workarounds.
    But at last..
    I have a lot of hope for version 12. I am sure the new team can catch up many issues. We have now PE, Bella, Dawn.
    Instead to bitch around why we have no Genesis, make the best of what we have.Because at the end, Genesis is just a base character too, awesomeness comes from the vendors who develops for her.



  • @Ladonna While all these points are true, I still very much appreciate the integration of SuperFly to Poser. This really turned it around for me, as I was seriously considering DS, although I was terrified by the user interface (so much for complaining about Poser's UI...). There was a steep learning curve for SF in the beginning, but meanwhile I am completely happy (well, micropolygon displacement...?). I think the developers did a great job trying to make the old materials work in SF (exceptions prove the rule). I truly hope that the improvements that the Cycles render engine has made in the meantime will be integrated in the next version of Poser. (Has anybody seen the latest Eevee realtime engine? Wowzers!)

    Of course content is king, and here we are facing a problem. I never used an original Poser character since Victoria came out in 1999. I am still a heavy Vicky 4 user and never really got warm with the Genesis* characters. But I understand that I'm living in the past here.

    I very much appreciate that thanks to LuluLee and WillDial we can use G3 content in Poser, although it never properly worked for me. Maybe there is some way to use G8 also? I learned that the DSON importer seriously cripples the material information, which means a lot of work when using DAZ stuff.

    Instead of relying on gifted community members to develop workarounds I think the best way for SM would be to include proper import tools for DAZ content in Poser.
    The best content comes from DAZ? Deal with it and make it easy to use in Poser instead of trying to push proprietary characters that hardly anybody uses. Keep them for the folks who appreciate a full package when buying Poser, but open the door for DAZ content for the rest of us, please.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @oldenburg I understand you. And I think this Superfly/Cycles is just a POV.
    I am here radical. Never make half stuff. Most of the time it leads to nowhere.
    They could keep FF and implement full Cycles. Like DS do with Iray, Blender with Cycles and Eevee .
    What we have now is just a half from each. Half firefly and half cycles.The problem, both of them did not play well together , so there is not much win win. But of course this is my POV . :)
    Genesis to Poser, this is a legal issue and not possible for SM to implement her in Poser.
    Daz has the better content developer. True, but why is it so? Most of them create for Poser before or for both software.Now exclusive for DS. Why this change? Because money? Some sure, but not all.I tell you, because way easier to create stuff for DS than for Poser. Poser is outdated, to much workaround which kills every creativity.
    Don't missunderstand me please, I don't want to bash here Poser, it is still my fav Software, but we have to wake up and face the true. Change the road and upgrade Poser to the new technics , or the market place will leave us far behind.
    There is no time anymore for nostalgic memories. :)



  • @oldenburg said in Are we getting left behind?:

    , but that can be shortcut by using EZCloth. Once you stored the cloth parameter presets for standard fabrics there, you never have to worry about that again.

    Glad you find it useful!

    I only use Dynamic cloth, which is one of the main reasons I wrote EZCloth

    Although I have made some of my dynamics available on ShareCG, I only realy started doing that for ProjectE, most of the stuff I've done for V4 has been for my own use.

    Flapper dresswith hair for the fringing alt text

    A Dress and cape for a wedding / after
    alt text

    A cape dress
    alt text

    A nice 50's style dress
    alt text
    3 Different wedding dresses
    alt text

    Trench coat with belt
    alt text

    There are limitations but you can create some really nice things with just blender and the cloth room



  • @tastiger said in Are we getting left behind?:

    I know I have said it before, that we should have moved to dynamic clothing by now, after all it's been available since Poser 5, but here we are and DAZ is pumping out dForce clothing like there is no tomorrow, I just get the feeling we are getting left behind when it comes to clothing...

    Thoughts?

    One other thing about Dynamic Clothing is that even though Poser has had it for years, it was primarily DAZ's decision not to sell it or other wise promote it for use with it's figure's that held both it's use and development back. Now that Studio has it's own version suddenly it's all the rage. That's what's commonly known as hype and propaganda.



  • @eclark1849 said in Are we getting left behind?:

    One other thing about Dynamic Clothing is that even though Poser has had it for years, it was primarily DAZ's decision not to sell it or other wise promote it for use with it's figure's that held both it's use and development back. Now that Studio has it's own version suddenly it's all the rage. That's what's commonly known as hype and propaganda.

    No I don't think you can put all the blame on DAZ - they weren't stopping other content creators from making dynamic clothing, I think I can now safely say without breaking any NDA's that I was a tester at RDNA for about 3-4 years up until they closed, and I can count on one hand the number of dynamic cloth products I tested during that time, I primarily tested in Poser Pro 2014 / Poser 10 just before they closed up shop and I was still testing conforming clothing which which made it's first appearance last century and developers just stuck with it as if they were afraid to experiment with what could be done with dynamics.

    Someone else mentioned Genesis 8 in Poser, it can be done using the same procedure as Genesis 3, but sadly it's a PITA in the first place, but if a new character / morph / clothing item come along you have to repeat the exercise, so why bother? I'm guessing that's why it never really gained any ground with Poser users.