Are we getting left behind?



  • Well one thing poser users are getting left behind on are promo images.

    The new promo page for Misumi for G8, every image is superb. I doubt that I would ever be able to get the same results but those images make me want to buy Misumi to give it a try and I'm a die hard Poser user who's never touched Genesis. I take a look at a few products, like Stonemason's Diorama pack 1, those promo images, to my eye, look better than 95% of what I've seen that are being advertised on the market. I've noticed this disparity for a while now, many DAZ promo renders are absolutely superior to what I see on rendo and certainly on cp. I look at rendo for items, but lately there's almost nothing that's catching my eyes and saying "buy me". Yet I look at DAZ and see Misumi, something from Stonemason or a G8 figure morph with a great smile and I have to walk away or my charge card is going to come out.

    Looking at the DAZ store lately has made me think "forget Poser and use this" then I come to my senses but I don't know how much longer I'm going to hold out.



  • @johndoe641 One thing I've learned in recent months, not all promos are done by the vendors. Now I'm not specifically talking about any one store, but I know of at least one or two vendors who have others do their promos, and those other folks are "promo artists", as it's just what they do all the time.

    Of course, an outstanding promo is going to sell a product better than an average promo, but some folks just have the knack of making the best of a product in a render. Not everyone can, so you buy a product based on these wonderful promos, and the ones I've seen are just that . . . wonderful, but will you be able to get the exact same results with your renders? That's always something I keep in the back of my mind.



  • @johndoe641 Yes, their promo stuff is top notch. I also agree with @Miss-B they have a few really good artists that do all the promos to insure that everything looks fantastic.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @johndoe641 True, but not all Promos are made in DS. Renderosity allow only Poser or DS promos, Daz not. So in VRay of course you make way better render than in DS or Poser.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @Miss-B Yep, and when the Promo is even rendered somewhere else. Not a secret btw. I buy a while ago from Esha a course . Was when I want to go deeper in DS. There she talk about promos and that you can render them in other software too.
    At last one or two only has to be rendered in DS.



  • Promos from other sofware than the stuff is intended for... Tells a tale to me.



  • @Ladonna hey may not be hiding that some renders are not don in DS but it still isn't stated right on the product page. It's dishonest bullshit if you ask me.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    I think it is not wrong to show your product from the best side. I even agree with this practice. But yes, they could write it .
    Like AS always tell that they render the promos in Octane.



  • @Ladonna Very true. You usually see Rendered in DS or Rendered in Poser tags, as I use them all the time for my renders, and even include Rendered in SuperFly, but no one has ever used a tag stating it was rendered with a 3rd-party render engine like Octane or Reality. That makes a big difference, and generally speaking, folks aren't aware of it.



  • Agreed.
    But if it's the only difference, what does stop you from doing the same?
    Actually if I see most "promo" renders from Poser artists and compare them to what we see at DAZ I can only tear my remaing hair out, shouting "But don't you SEE IT!!"

    Compared to what can be seen at DAZ, many of the
    Poser "promo" renders rather look like they were made for posting at DAZ forums:
    "Why you shouldn't render in Poser using it's native figures"

    I know that I'll probably tread on some's toes here, but we finally need to face the facts.
    Poser is already miles behind anything you can do in DAZ, render-wise!

    And though I praise highly all the efforts of the tinkerers here, you should face the fact that most users don't want to tinker and don't want to apply some crazy fixes to get a simple render to work.

    They want click-pose-render capability. Poser can't do this in the same easy way as DAZ can.

    Sorry if I offend some people here, but let's just for a moment look outside of out "comfort" bubble!

    The 3D world (and especially DAZ) moves on in leaps and bounces, while Poser is grounded.

    Please don't consider this as trolling!
    Remember that I'm the one who made SASHA-16 to help Poser to survive!

    Regards
    Karina



  • Addendum to my previous post, due to the ridiculous editing time limit of 180 seconds:

    I am watching Poser's self-destruction with horror and disbelief.

    However, IF Poser finally has killed itself I'll probably be one of the only survivors.
    Having PP2014 leaves me all the options to modify any content I need (or to make it myself) without being restricted by some proprietary software and file encryption like DAZ imposes to create it's small "walled garden" to nickel and dime the last shirt button out of it's customers.
    Nor am I dependent on any online "activation" schemes which might fail as soon as SM goes belly-up.

    I don't like "Black Boxes" unless I can open them to check what makes them ticking.

    /K



  • @karina said in Are we getting left behind?:

    Addendum to my previous post, due to the ridiculous editing time limit of 180 seconds:

    I am watching Poser's self-destruction with horror and disbelief.

    However, IF Poser finally has killed itself I'll probably be one of the only survivors.
    Having PP2014 leaves me all the options to modify any content I need (or to make it myself) without being restricted by some proprietary software and file encryption like DAZ imposes to create it's small "walled garden" to nickel and dime the last shirt button out of it's customers.
    Nor am I dependent on any online "activation" schemes which might fail as soon as SM goes belly-up.

    I don't like "Black Boxes" unless I can open them to check what makes them ticking.

    /K

    Ah but you just put your foot in your mouth there. "I only have Poser 2014"

    Well .. DUH! Heard of Superfly? Yep. That new thing in the NEW(est) Poser.

    Of course you can't make super-duper-Daz's-newest-Vray-verseion in an old version of Poser. But Superfly can render AT LEAST as well as anything else. IF the materials are properly made for it.

    Sadly, FAR too few vendors provide Superfly materials in their products. And then .. ppl will use Firefly and dream of DS and V-ray.

    If you want to compare, compare the BEST of both versions not some old stuff to the newest. That's not a fair comparison.



  • @Miss-B said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @johndoe641 One thing I've learned in recent months, not all promos are done by the vendors. Now I'm not specifically talking about any one store, but I know of at least one or two vendors who have others do their promos, and those other folks are "promo artists", as it's just what they do all the time.

    Of course, an outstanding promo is going to sell a product better than an average promo, but some folks just have the knack of making the best of a product in a render. Not everyone can, so you buy a product based on these wonderful promos, and the ones I've seen are just that . . . wonderful, but will you be able to get the exact same results with your renders? That's always something I keep in the back of my mind.

    Well, thought I'd pass this on for comparison.

    I'm still a relative newbie with DAZ Studio (2-4 months of tinkering, mostly with rigging stuff). Sangriart's Game of Thrones females were what pushed me over the edge to start digging into DS after I stopped using it in the Genesis 1 days.

    Anyways, I'm still in "point, click, render" mode because I'm trying to soak a whole lot in right now. But if you want to compare a relative newbie's render of Misumi to the ones on the promo page, I offer this. I tried everything I could to improve the lighting, and every render looked exactly the same. That's now new I am. LMAO

    But anyway, I got her last night. She's a real cutie.

    0_1529282012493_misumi.png



  • @Deecey She is cute, no question about it, and your render came out nice, especially the reflection.



  • My biggest problem with people who complain about being left behind is mainly that what they're complaining about often isn't the features, but the figures. Also what features they DO complain about they often don't even use and probably haven't even tried them yet. Quick show of hands... how many people who are complaining about being left behind have even tried to use Bullet physics more than once? How often do you even use the cloth room or did you try it once or twice when it first came out, couldn't get it to work for you and stopped? I bitch and moan about the hair room but at least I have given it a fair shake. It's just tedious and boring.

    You can't really say that Poser doesn't use Genesis, because people have found a way to use every version of Genesis in Poser up to and including the current G8. No, it's not a render and load proposition, and I believe that's really the issue for most people... ease of use.



  • My issue with regard to dynamic clothing is one of thickness.

    Taking from the images amethystpendant posted, look closely at the straps and top of the dress in the first image. Or the 3rd image, the cape dress.

    Notice how thin the fabric looks? The only time I've seen clothing that thin in the real world is when it's made of latex. It looks 2 dimensional to me, and when compared to similar conforming clothing, the conforming outfit has thickness and hems. Too many dynamic clothing makers don't seem to even make an attempt at doing a hem.

    Now, it could be an issue of mesh intersection/closeness making Poser's dynamics wig out, but surely you could get around that with the use of some displacement in the texture couldn't you?



  • @modus0 said in Are we getting left behind?:

    Now, it could be an issue of mesh intersection/closeness making Poser's dynamics wig out, but surely you could get around that with the use of some displacement in the texture couldn't you?

    Depends on whether or not you want to render with FireFly or SuperFly. FireFly has true "micropolygon displacement" which works as one would expect it to work. However, in order to get that same amount of detail in SuperFly you have to subdivide the mesh until you get enough polygons to displace the geometry. Two entirely different methods.

    I believe at the time SuperFly was added to Poser, Cycles did not yet support micropolygon displacement. From what I understand, it does now. Would be nice to see support added to SuperFly for that.



  • @eclark1849 said in Are we getting left behind?:

    My biggest problem with people who complain about being left behind is mainly that what they're complaining about often isn't the features, but the figures. Also what features they DO complain about they often don't even use and probably haven't even tried them yet. Quick show of hands... how many people who are complaining about being left behind have even tried to use Bullet physics more than once? How often do you even use the cloth room or did you try it once or twice when it first came out, couldn't get it to work for you and stopped? I bitch and moan about the hair room but at least I have given it a fair shake. It's just tedious and boring.

    Yes I have used the cloth room since it first appeared in Poser 5, my complaint isn't with the cloth room it is with content, only a few creators stuck their necks out and made dynamic clothing, everyone else stuck with last century's offering of conforming clothing and when you are working with animation, dynamic clothing helps a lot.

    I don't know how else I can say it without offending someone's love of Poser - I love it too or else I wouldn't be posting here, but honestly why are we are still using Poser 4 technology in Poser 11?

    Isn't it time we moved on folks?


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @tastiger This is what I say all the time too. Nostalgica is wrong here. When I see how quick DS user adapt to new DS technic and Poser user even don't bother to use any of the new stuff, than you don't have to wonder when vendors move to DS or stay with Poser old technic.
    As former RDNA betatester you should still remember the fights when vendors don't want to make their stuff compatible for Poser 9-2014.
    With Colm I had many times huge fights because of this. Using Poser's 2012-2014 SSS shader, grouping tool, or other new technic, lead always to rejecting our product whith the advice to make it compatible for Poser 9+.
    So what did many vendors do? Create with old technic, because to make 3-4 versions way to time expensive .



  • @modus0
    Thickness is not related to clothing bring dynamic or not. It is just how you model the garment. The simulation is always on mid-plane. It will not work if the garment is fully double-sided but the cloth room is happy with edge seamsof moderate size and with pipings.

    What would be a real help is a facility to make the cloth 'thick' before rendering. It saves a lot of polygons and vertices in the model and speeds up simulation.