Are we getting left behind?



  • @tastiger I have asked this question many times and have never received a wholy satisfactory answer. So maybe you can help. I know a lot of people just don't like the look of the Poser models, and that's fine. I actually understand that... to a point. But could you explain to me just what it is that the Genesis figures do that you want a figure from SM to go as well or better? And please, go for broke. What kind of figure would SM have to come out with to make you drop everything DAZ is doing right now to go with that new figure from SM? Would this figure have to be beautiful out of the box by defuault or are you willing to accept something generic looking, but easily morphable?



  • @eclark1849 said in Are we getting left behind?:

    Would this figure have to be beautiful out of the box by defuault or are you willing to accept something generic looking, but easily morphable?

    From my own perspective (and remember, you can't please everyone) ...

    • I prefer a tall, thin model over a shorter "real-world" proportioned model because the latter often look too heavy after wearing multiple layers of clothing in Poser. Poser figures tend to go with real-world proportions.
    • Something around 40K polygons is low enough not to weigh scenes down a lot but maintain enough detail to add good topology for posing and different body shapes. Unless you go with high resolution morphs.
    • It doesn't really have to be beautiful out of the box. In fact, the more generic the face is, the easier it will be to morph it to different ethnicities. If you "bake in" too many features in the face, it's often way too difficult to morph them out. Take Sydney, for example. She has very strong features, and you can usually tell when someone made a morph from her because there are always traces of her face underneath there. It's much easier to start with a generic face and morph the features IN. Same with the body. Just make sure you have proper edge flow in the geometry to do it.
    • VERSATILITY is the key. The more easily morphable it is, the better it will do. One of the reasons the DAZ figures are popular is because of their versatility.
    • Good rigging. With as few JCMs as possible. And please, no magnets. No. No. No. No.
    • K.I.S.S. The more complicated a figure is to use, the harder it will be to get people to use it.

    Figure development is a fine art in itself. As those who undertake it quickly discover. ;-)



  • And of course CONTENT!

    I was trying out the new Roxie morph tonight and realised that the only shoes there is for Roxie (included in Poser at least) are trainers. Which looks naff with a sweet summer dress. I managed to find ONE pair of shoes for her on ShareCG.

    I know some mostly do nudes. I do mostly ppl with their clothes on. And for that, I need available clothes.

    Same with textures. That's one of the things PE has done right. She comes WITH more than one texture.



  • Check the outfits for Roxie. Some of them come with shoes.



  • @fbs7 said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @tastiger said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @adp the stress test looks good, it's good to see some people experimenting and does show exactly what can be done in the cloth room, when one puts in a bit of an effort.

    A bit of a lot of effort in case of animations. I'm living proof - a 11 seconds animation took me 12-14 hours to prepare, it only had one stupid blanket (just a plain rectangle with no frills of any kind) and I spent some 70-80% of my time adjusting the freaking cloth animation to get it under control.

    Cloth animations may be ok in Poser for the pin up render, but are a terrible time consumer for animations. I pretty much gave up on them, and nowadays I just use morphs from the morphing tool to simulate flows - have much better control too, that way.

    What were you trying to do with the blanket if I may ask?



  • @eclark1849 said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @tastiger I have asked this question many times and have never received a wholy satisfactory answer. So maybe you can help. I know a lot of people just don't like the look of the Poser models, and that's fine. I actually understand that... to a point. But could you explain to me just what it is that the Genesis figures do that you want a figure from SM to go as well or better? And please, go for broke. What kind of figure would SM have to come out with to make you drop everything DAZ is doing right now to go with that new figure from SM? Would this figure have to be beautiful out of the box by defuault or are you willing to accept something generic looking, but easily morphable?

    Doesn't have to be up to Genesis 8 standards but at least Genesis 3 and it needs to be supported - that is the real issue the figures that have come with Poser are always only partially supported, whereas at least with Genesis 2 they can be used with some tweaking in the material room and using EZskin. As for everything else, I would have to say that Deecay has covered it nicely, the figure has to be adaptable (which is why I said Genesis 2).



  • @tastiger said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @eclark1849 said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @tastiger I have asked this question many times and have never received a wholy satisfactory answer. So maybe you can help. I know a lot of people just don't like the look of the Poser models, and that's fine. I actually understand that... to a point. But could you explain to me just what it is that the Genesis figures do that you want a figure from SM to go as well or better? And please, go for broke. What kind of figure would SM have to come out with to make you drop everything DAZ is doing right now to go with that new figure from SM? Would this figure have to be beautiful out of the box by defuault or are you willing to accept something generic looking, but easily morphable?

    Doesn't have to be up to Genesis 8 standards but at least Genesis 3 and it needs to be supported - that is the real issue the figures that have come with Poser are always only partially supported, whereas at least with Genesis 2 they can be used with some tweaking in the material room and using EZskin. As for everything else, I would have to say that Deecay has covered it nicely, the figure has to be adaptable (which is why I said Genesis 2).

    Okay, well, I'll ceed the support argument. I definitely think SM should do a much better job of supporting their own figures. I don't necessarily agree with Deecey's "real world proportions" argument, but tastes vary. I've never used Genesis, any of them, but I have used Poser figures, and Dawn with EZskin and in the material room, so can't necessarily cede that argument to you either.
    But basically what I hear you saying is better support and better morphability.

    Now one of the things that Poser did do was to allow animatable joints, which at the time was supposed to be such a big thing with Genesis. Turned out to be a dud for both Genesis and Poser if I'm not mistaken. And Poser, while lagging behind Studio with Auto fit, did come out with the fitting Room And there was always Wardrobe Wizard. So I'll give DAZ big points for eaze of use, I still have to give innovativeness to Poser because really as far as toolsets go, featurewise, Studio is just now catching up to Poser.



  • @eclark1849 I don't think they should have been able to catch up, but I'm not in charge... of anything. But if I were, Studio would be eating Posers dust. I wouldn't bother adding anything new. Just make improvements on what's already there.



  • @eclark1849 I'd also get rid of anything that SM didn't own outright or didn't have the right to change as we saw fit. That probably means that both the Hair Room and the Cloth room would be out and replace with something more robust like what Blender uses. (I'm just using them as a guideline).



  • @eclark1849 I'd fully implement Cycles, but streamline Bullet Physics and make it much more user friendly. I'd release the next version with upgraded and improved versions of Paul and Pauline. I think it's a mistake to keep starting over, but I'd keep in mind what you guys have been saying about the figures and support. With that thought in mind I'd release a Free Content development kit for preferred vendors, preferably those willing to broker with Content Paradise. Yeah, everyone else would have to buy a kit, but I wouldn't make it pricey. Might even just end up making it free.



  • @eclark1849 said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @fbs7 said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @tastiger said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @adp the stress test looks good, it's good to see some people experimenting and does show exactly what can be done in the cloth room, when one puts in a bit of an effort.

    A bit of a lot of effort in case of animations. I'm living proof - a 11 seconds animation took me 12-14 hours to prepare, it only had one stupid blanket (just a plain rectangle with no frills of any kind) and I spent some 70-80% of my time adjusting the freaking cloth animation to get it under control.

    Cloth animations may be ok in Poser for the pin up render, but are a terrible time consumer for animations. I pretty much gave up on them, and nowadays I just use morphs from the morphing tool to simulate flows - have much better control too, that way.

    What were you trying to do with the blanket if I may ask?

    That was of TY2 sleeping on her side under a blanket, with a foot out of the blanket, then her dog puts his nose on her foot, she wakes up scared and jumps to a sitting position.

    The problem was the fast jump with a turn; that was a 0.5-0.8 seconds jump, and that made the blanket fly all over the place - the first try I remember the blanket literally flew away. So to keep the heavy blanket in the bed I had to morph the blanket sides and make them static. Then the nightgown was the problem, as the nightgown's body was under the blanket while the long sleeves were above the blanket, and that made the cloth simulator crazy.

    So, no, these were the most useless 15 hours I remember wasting in recent times, and made me remember that yeah, simple slow movements are ok for the dynamic cloth, but any fast active movements are hellish ride down the failure waterfall with Poser. Just way, way, way too slow to simulate, very too little control of what's happening and extremely difficult to manipulate (just try to get someone to put on a jacket!).

    And I say that after spending several thousand hours trying to animate with Poser dynamic clothes in multiple projects over 15 years. Looked nice in 2000 and I was really excited back then, but today it is just completely obsolete, and I gave up on it. It's evil, poisonous and crappy.

    Now, to be fair, I very much love the Fitting Room: pose the toon, fit in fitting room, morph the cloth, then pose again, fit in fitting room, morph the cloth and so forth. So if you have 4 positions (for say a basic walk) that you repeat 20 times, you just repeat the morphs. Perfectly baked into morphs, under your complete control, nothing crazy happens, retime automatically as you retime the animation, can speed up and slow down automatically without anything going crazy, don't need to repeat simulation 300 times to adjust whatever, don't need to re-simulate the previous 800 frames that you already simulated and are done, and you can just modify the morph with the awesome morph tool to add any effects you want in the cloth and remove any defects that you see.

    Imho the fitting room does an awesome job baking animation into the cloth, extremely useful up-to-date tool, while the disgusting cloth room is extremely useless outdated tool.



  • Plus, very important and I forgot to refer, with the fitting room you can make very fast movements by baking into morphs, don't have to worry about the cloth losing its shape due to plastic deformations (dynamic cloth simulations are plastic, not elastic, you know... that is the cloth doesn't bounce back if it gets deformed, if it's deformed in frame 100 then it remains deformed in frames 101 to 1001) and you get independence from frame rate (the cloth room for some horrible reason seems to be hard-coded to 30 fps).



  • @Deecey said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @Miss-B said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @johndoe641 One thing I've learned in recent months, not all promos are done by the vendors. Now I'm not specifically talking about any one store, but I know of at least one or two vendors who have others do their promos, and those other folks are "promo artists", as it's just what they do all the time.

    Of course, an outstanding promo is going to sell a product better than an average promo, but some folks just have the knack of making the best of a product in a render. Not everyone can, so you buy a product based on these wonderful promos, and the ones I've seen are just that . . . wonderful, but will you be able to get the exact same results with your renders? That's always something I keep in the back of my mind.

    Well, thought I'd pass this on for comparison.

    I'm still a relative newbie with DAZ Studio (2-4 months of tinkering, mostly with rigging stuff). Sangriart's Game of Thrones females were what pushed me over the edge to start digging into DS after I stopped using it in the Genesis 1 days.

    Anyways, I'm still in "point, click, render" mode because I'm trying to soak a whole lot in right now. But if you want to compare a relative newbie's render of Misumi to the ones on the promo page, I offer this. I tried everything I could to improve the lighting, and every render looked exactly the same. That's now new I am. LMAO

    But anyway, I got her last night. She's a real cutie.

    0_1529282012493_misumi.png

    Yes, I'm a software goober, I need simple click and pose stuff for at least three years until I can slowly figure stuff out. I've been using Poser since version 4 and I still can't do a single thing in the material room.

    It's funny because after my initial post, I took the chance and also bought Misumi to see how Studio and iray work. Well I was totally lost, couldn't understand of figure out how to do a single thing for 20 minutes because of how different it was to Poser... but I managed to load Misumi and get Beverly Hair on her ( a hair from 10 years ago) and get a tpose render going.

    So 30 minutes in with 0 idea wtf I was doing and I get this:
    0_1529478910636_Misumi-test2.jpg

    I was rather impressed with how random clicking on things makes an image that I like better than almost 99% of my poser images.

    A day later and I was able to figure out a small bit of how lighting, how to use poses and how to fit hair to figures it wasn't designed for. D:
    0_1529479019735_Misumi5.jpg

    And that expression is basically what it was like for me the entire time I was working in Studio but if I can figure it out, I think I may just stick with it. :/


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @johndoe641 I think here you can see very well how urgent Poser need a proper World Dome and proper lights.
    I have to say sadly also, that with DS my preview render look way better than my Poser render after hours of tweaking.
    The World Dome and light are just not right.
    Hope here really for a update.



  • @fbs7 said in Are we getting left behind?:

    Plus, very important and I forgot to refer, with the fitting room you can make very fast movements by baking into morphs, don't have to worry about the cloth losing its shape due to plastic deformations (dynamic cloth simulations are plastic, not elastic, you know... that is the cloth doesn't bounce back if it gets deformed, if it's deformed in frame 100 then it remains deformed in frames 101 to 1001) and you get independence from frame rate (the cloth room for some horrible reason seems to be hard-coded to 30 fps).

    You can set the start and end frame when you create a simulation, I have had sims run over 100's of frames. Can you in RL jump up in .3 of a second? The name says it all, simulation, and it all comes down to the settings you use. If your blanket had the default settings and you tried to move it 5 feet in 0.3 seconds it would stretch and deform like cray. In RL a blanket would hardly stretch at all, 980 not 50. It would have high air damping, it would shear more than crease. It would be heavy, reducing its ability to fly away but imparting momentum, so to offset use a higher stretch damping. Yes you might need to play with these a bit to get the right results but it certainly can be done.



  • @trekkiegrrrl I have to agree. Unfortunately Superfly in particular and P11 in general had a rocky start and I think a lot of people gave up on it. I know people don't want to hear it but we've lost a ton of great vendors to D/S.

    I can count the number of vendors who support Superfly on the fingers of one head. Okay that's a slightly unfair exaggeration, but they are definitely the exception rather than the rule. I've also bought products proclaiming to be Superfly friendly which are really just not Superfly Un-friendly. There are obvious exceptions, Cybertenko and Seven/SV7 leap to mind. I can and do adapt new purchases, but in an ideal world I shouldn't really have to.

    Even if you don't want to learn cycles, which I can understand, it scares the bejeezus out of me, you can achieve some great results just using the physical surface node. If you plug the texture maps of most characters into the Phys Node and tweak a couple of settings you have pretty good results without using any other nodes at all. It's even got SSS pre-built in to the base node.



  • @amethystpendant And more: You can use choreographed parts to control how the fabric moves.

    And another one: Poser allows the creation of low-res proxies to simplify and speed up things.

    The statement that garment does not flex back if it is stretched is also not true. It needs correctly set parameters and a bit time (frames). Like in reality, because it is a simulation.



  • @johndoe641 said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @Deecey said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @Miss-B said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @johndoe641 One thing I've learned in recent months, not all promos are done by the vendors. Now I'm not specifically talking about any one store, but I know of at least one or two vendors who have others do their promos, and those other folks are "promo artists", as it's just what they do all the time.

    Of course, an outstanding promo is going to sell a product better than an average promo, but some folks just have the knack of making the best of a product in a render. Not everyone can, so you buy a product based on these wonderful promos, and the ones I've seen are just that . . . wonderful, but will you be able to get the exact same results with your renders? That's always something I keep in the back of my mind.

    Well, thought I'd pass this on for comparison.

    I'm still a relative newbie with DAZ Studio (2-4 months of tinkering, mostly with rigging stuff). Sangriart's Game of Thrones females were what pushed me over the edge to start digging into DS after I stopped using it in the Genesis 1 days.

    Anyways, I'm still in "point, click, render" mode because I'm trying to soak a whole lot in right now. But if you want to compare a relative newbie's render of Misumi to the ones on the promo page, I offer this. I tried everything I could to improve the lighting, and every render looked exactly the same. That's now new I am. LMAO

    But anyway, I got her last night. She's a real cutie.

    0_1529282012493_misumi.png

    Yes, I'm a software goober, I need simple click and pose stuff for at least three years until I can slowly figure stuff out. I've been using Poser since version 4 and I still can't do a single thing in the material room.

    It's funny because after my initial post, I took the chance and also bought Misumi to see how Studio and iray work. Well I was totally lost, couldn't understand of figure out how to do a single thing for 20 minutes because of how different it was to Poser... but I managed to load Misumi and get Beverly Hair on her ( a hair from 10 years ago) and get a tpose render going.

    So 30 minutes in with 0 idea wtf I was doing and I get this:
    0_1529478910636_Misumi-test2.jpg

    I was rather impressed with how random clicking on things makes an image that I like better than almost 99% of my poser images.

    A day later and I was able to figure out a small bit of how lighting, how to use poses and how to fit hair to figures it wasn't designed for. D:
    0_1529479019735_Misumi5.jpg

    And that expression is basically what it was like for me the entire time I was working in Studio but if I can figure it out, I think I may just stick with it. :/

    Hi there

    If you are coming from Poser or any SW to DS then you find DS way harder to navigate, which many people says about the Poser or 3DS Max or Blender

    If we are been left behind, sadly yes

    I still prefer to render with Poser and use Poser, DS I use only for export Genesis figures but I render them in SuperFly or Octane or Corona

    Hope this helps

    Thanks, Jura



  • @Ladonna said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @johndoe641 I think here you can see very well how urgent Poser need a proper World Dome and proper lights.
    I have to say sadly also, that with DS my preview render look way better than my Poser render after hours of tweaking.
    The World Dome and light are just not right.
    Hope here really for a update.

    Yep, a proper envirodome from SM needs to be included. EZDome is great but it has issues and it's a third party add-on. For someone who is just starting out, all they get is the default dome thing that's very render inefficient. The DAZ dome thingy seems to produce great renders without any tweaking.

    @AmyLBone said in Are we getting left behind?:

    @trekkiegrrrl I have to agree. Unfortunately Superfly in particular and P11 in general had a rocky start and I think a lot of people gave up on it. I know people don't want to hear it but we've lost a ton of great vendors to D/S.

    I can count the number of vendors who support Superfly on the fingers of one head. Okay that's a slightly unfair exaggeration, but they are definitely the exception rather than the rule. I've also bought products proclaiming to be Superfly friendly which are really just not Superfly Un-friendly. There are obvious exceptions, Cybertenko and Seven/SV7 leap to mind. I can and do adapt new purchases, but in an ideal world I shouldn't really have to.

    Even if you don't want to learn cycles, which I can understand, it scares the bejeezus out of me, you can achieve some great results just using the physical surface node. If you plug the texture maps of most characters into the Phys Node and tweak a couple of settings you have pretty good results without using any other nodes at all. It's even got SSS pre-built in to the base node.

    I think the biggest problem with SuperFly's debut was the renders people were posting. Now it's a different story for experienced Poser users, but back when it was new, I honestly couldn't see any differences to Firefly renders. People were taking their scenes made in previous versions and simply outputting them with SF and some of them looked absolutely horrible. SM needed to include simple skin and material shaders for people and common items that are specifically designed just for SF. I had to spend 20 dollars to get a really nice collection of SF shaders that changed my keep ratio for renders from 5% to 80%, but after that it felt like an entirely new program. I'm not sure if they're part of the Studio freebie stuff or I came across them somewhere else, but there's a bunch of iray shaders in my materials collection, I can just click on them and get good results very quickly.

    SM also needs to include the update Cycles nodes and features that were recently added in. Blender is blazing past what SF can do, and Poser doesn't need to be eclipsed on multiple fronts.



  • I think the biggest problem with SuperFly's debut was the renders people were posting. Now it's a different story for experienced Poser users, but back when it was new, I honestly couldn't see any differences to Firefly renders. People were taking their scenes made in previous versions and simply outputting them with SF and some of them looked absolutely horrible. SM needed to include simple skin and material shaders for people and common items that are specifically designed just for SF. I had to spend 20 dollars to get a really nice collection of SF shaders that changed my keep ratio for renders from 5% to 80%, but after that it felt like an entirely new program. I'm not sure if they're part of the Studio freebie stuff or I came across them somewhere else, but there's a bunch of iray shaders in my materials collection, I can just click on them and get good results very quickly.

    SM also needs to include the update Cycles nodes and features that were recently added in. Blender is blazing past what SF can do, and Poser doesn't need to be eclipsed on multiple fronts.

    Yes, the irony isn't lost on me that the product that got me working with Superfly is one I bought from Daz3d (Vince Bagna's superfly shaders). It can be worth spinning up a render with old materials though to see if they work. The hair and outfit in this image is using the original textures in superfly:

    alt text

    Another thing SM should do more is promote what comes with Poser. It took me over 18 months to realise that Poser has PBR and Substance ready mats in the Material Library, that you can just add texture maps to. Complete with a scaling math node already plugged in. So I now have a load of custom textures garnered from various free PBR sites, which I can use in Poser. The Webinars are great, but a few short "Did you know you could do this?" vids would probably encourage experimentation.