Portugal... hmm...



  • I don't make content but I believe it is easier to make dynamic rather than conforming clothing, well at least the poser manual says so, so I'm astounded we've had threads on here saying how everything should be switched to dynamic and it's only the intransigence of vendors holding us back. Don't people realise vendors are not stupid? If the market, i.e. users, wanted dynamic clothing then that's what vendors would supply.

    Unfortunately we only hear from the vocal few who seem convinced that they know what everybody wants, when probably they are in the minority and are complaining because vendors have never found it worthwhile to support their particular interests.

    Equally I'm really dumbfounded when people say they have invested so much in V4 that they can't, or won't, use any other figure. Come on, V4 is a 3d mesh, not your girlfriend, she doesn't require you to be monogamous, she's not going to walk out on you if you buy a dress for another figure. Perhaps I'm cynical, but if you have invested so much in V4, you're unlikely to want to buy much new. I've only been using Poser for about three and a half years, but my V4 library is over flowing, I don't need anymore textures or outfits for her, the V4 market is saturated. So perhaps those people are really saying "I've already spent a lot on Poser and don't really want to spend anymore, but vendors keep making new stuff for her just in case I fancy buying it."

    And then we come to the issue of price. Perhaps again we here too much from those who make their own clothing, and so are not really that interested in buying. Before I retired at Christmas I was spending up to 400ukp (500usd) and occasionally more on Poser content. Now I've retired I've cut that down to about 150ukp a month. But I make no apology for trying to get best value for my money. If something is on sale, I'm not going to wait until it's full price to buy it. On the other hand while I suppose there is some sort of limit on what I would pay for a single item, I can't imaging paying much over 30usd for a single outfit, I would be willing to pay up to that for a quality outfit in a genre I use for any of the newer figures. But that is because of the general feel of value I've got from the time I've been using Poser. If when I first looked at the various market places all outfits had been priced at around 50usd, that is what I would be paying, just not buying so many items.

    Ever since I started reading Poser forums I have felt a disdain from a section of posters to those they term the "load, pose render brigade". of course they have missed out one vital step in the process, BUY, load, pose, render. In the end typical users need vendors, and vendors need customers, so criticising each other will get us nowhere. If you were considering buying Poser and came to this forum, would it really encourage you?

    Anyway, rant over, I'm now going back to being mainly silent observer, supporting vendors in the way that matters, with my wallet.



  • @j.naylor73 I really only fault Poser/SM for one or two things. Marketing and hype. I have to give to DAZ on this one. They are the undisputed king of Marketing and hype. I've often given SM a pass in the past by saying that they are not a content company, they are a Software company. And I'm not a "Content is king" advocate. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that content has NO place in this. Hell, it's DAZ's bread and butter. But SM sucks at it. So why keep flogging them with a wet noodle. You'd get better response from making Dawn the default figure and helping Hivewire if not take over, at least give them a fighting chance to compete. I also think that RDNA helped promote Poser far more than anyone may give them credit for. It's unfortunate that we lost so many Poser vendors in the great RDNA "purge".



  • @j.naylor73 It is, indeed, easier to make dynamic clothing than conforming - though I think "easier" is a relative term. If you look at some of the vendors dynamic clothing, it's beautifully made and quite the compliment to their skills. That kind of talent doesn't happen overnight (see Lully's dynamics at Hivewire, for instance).

    The only difference between dynamics like that and conforming is the rigging.

    Lully and a few other vendors have made some nice inroads to making dynamic less scary for the end user, and that's a good thing.

    On your same level of conversation, what I don't understand is these folks who keep "threatening" Poser, et al, with DS.

    DAZ literally replaces their entire product line every 2 years. And the customers dutifully throw out all their "beloved" Genesis figures and start anew. Purchasing the same thing they already bought for V4, Genesis, Genesis 2, Genesis3 and now, Genesis 8.

    Does anyone really think they remodeled the Morphing Fantasy Dress 5 times? And, they're just lucky as heck that 5 times the UV maps were a perfect match??????? Yet, the customers re-buy the MFD for every generation.

    And, Poser vendors can't even sell the FIRST MFD for PE!!!!!!! Those vendors are considered evil for even thinking such an atrocity!

    And you wonder why the vendors leave Poser content creation for DS creation?



  • @eclark1849 It's NOT just their marketing and hype. See my post immediately after yours about the MFD - that's not "hype" that sells 5 versions of the same danged dress - that's customer conditioning.

    The DAZ vendors all wreck havoc on any customer who DARES to suggest that buying the same dress 5 times is silly. Because DAZ vendors stick together and aren't trying to stab each other in the back day in and day out.

    They're part of the customer conditioning.



  • @eclark1849 said in Portugal... hmm...:

    @j.naylor73 I really only fault Poser/SM for one or two things. Marketing and hype. I have to give to DAZ on this one. They are the undisputed king of Marketing and hype. I've often given SM a pass in the past by saying that they are not a content company, they are a Software company. And I'm not a "Content is king" advocate.

    Hmm... that's a good phrase, "Content is king". I never considered one way or the other. But for certain when I looked at iClone 7 a few months ago, a superb software for $150, I completely moved away from even trying it because of the proprietary content. I didn't even want to risk liking it.



  • @Glitterati3D said in Portugal... hmm...:

    @eclark1849 It's NOT just their marketing and hype. See my post immediately after yours about the MFD - that's not "hype" that sells 5 versions of the same danged dress - that's customer conditioning.

    The DAZ vendors all wreck havoc on any customer who DARES to suggest that buying the same dress 5 times is silly. Because DAZ vendors stick together and aren't trying to stab each other in the back day in and day out.

    They're part of the customer conditioning.

    Don't know if I completely agree, Traci. I only bought two versions of the MFD, and both times were when that figure really didn't have much else to wear. I also bought the Morphing Cocktail Dress and the Morphing Starlet dress. Both dresses had a few extra textures for them, but I didn't perceive either of them being as successful as the MFD. And Stephanie Petite had an MFD as well, which I also bought. Different circumstances for me there. I knew I could use V3's MFD textures on the dress and I was using it in a story I was writing at the time. So, all in all, different time, different era. As far as today's Market, I'm going to stick with it's all about Genesis marketing and hype.


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    In spite of the heated tone, there are some pretty good arguments here. I was surprised when SMS came with such great ideas for the next Poser version, but even MORE surprised when they didn't advertise them with the emphasis they deserved. For instance, it took me MONTHS until I finally realized what "unimesh skinning" was about - and consider I was from the insider team. In short, SMS has AWESOME features in there for Poser, but their marketing S-U-C-K-S big time.

    Perhaps this is one reason why so many are unsatisfied with Poser - many of the great stuff is hidden under poor advertisement, or perhaps the utter lack of it. For all these people bashing us with what DAZ does better, there is a lot Poser does better, but fail to advertise about it, so people don't know it's in there. They forget the sheer number of DS users who are still using older versions, and refuse to upgrade to even version 4. That means there is a number of DS users who have never used or bought anything for Genesis - any of them. DAZ is not pleasing everyone, even in their own side of the fence.

    Maybe this could be more of a case of people thinking that the grass is always greener on the neighbors yard. Users and vendors on their side are not as happy about DAZ performance as some may think. Just look at how many vendors promptly left DAZ when HW opened doors back in 2013. Even if DAZ bought them all back later on, it doesn't change the fact that they left DAZ in the first opportunity, and without hesitation. And when they did that, they had nothing good to say about working with DAZ.

    It is silly to think that DAZ is doing so great because DS is supposedly better than Poser. Of course, it was created 10 years after Poser, so they had plenty of opportunity to improve on known issues in the new program. For once, conforming works light years better in DS than it does in Poser, but both programs have pros and cons. None is absolutely good on everything. This story that SMS has to "learn" from DAZ is getting old pretty quickly. It was DAZ who learned from Poser to be able to create DS. And people are sticking with DAZ because they maker better content, not the program. The only reason we don't hear them complaining about DS is because they didn't pay for it.

    But don't take me wrong - I still want Poser to seriously improve, but I have to be realistic. Now is not the moment to create that kind of expectation. The new dev team is inexperienced, and still rather "green" to make the deep kind of changes Poser really needs. If they will actually do it, they will need more time. I think that is more down to Earth.


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    @Glitterati3D One of the reason why they leave, ( some vendors told me. I asked a few, because i was interested about cloth creation for PE and had till now not that much experience) Poser user want to much. Should be compatible with Superfly, Firefly. Morphs, any kind of. Many textures. Conforming which autofollow perfect, without any issues ( they don't like the morph brush tool) and many other "features". And this to a low price. One vendor told me, (he stop creating for Poser 3-4 years ago,) at last it was just the pure hell for him to create for Poser. He move to DS and this is way less stress for him.
    He still make complex outfits, but here the people pay the fair price.( At last what is fair in this market)



  • @Ken1171 GET OUT MY HEAD!!!!!! :)



  • @Ken1171 said in Portugal... hmm...:

    In spite of the heated tone, there are some pretty good arguments here. I was surprised when SMS came with such great ideas for the next Poser version, but even MORE surprised when they didn't advertise them with the emphasis they deserved. For instance, it took me MONTHS until I finally realized what "unimesh skinning" was about - and consider I was from the insider team. In short, SMS has AWESOME features in there for Poser, but their marketing S-U-C-K-S big time.

    Uhm ... So what DOES this Unimesh thing really do? I mean, I know I have to swap to it whenever I want to subdivide one of my old figures, but apart from that ... what does it actually DO?


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    @trekkiegrrrl It temporarily welds the mesh into 1 piece again. If you want to paint weights or use the Morphing Tool to correct a JCM shape, or create a new one, this is what you should do first (just convert to unimesh skinning, don't subdivide), especially if you have used the dreadful auto-group. Otherwise, the smoothing brush will spike out your JCMs if you use it over a group border with other groups - especially the thigh groups.

    Unfortunately, this conversion is only temporary in memory, and your groups are still split. It doesn't fix the broken mesh, but it lets you work with JCMs and weight map painting. Even if you have properly grouped your mesh elsewhere, as soon as you load it into Poser, it will break it into pieces again, so the steps above always apply.

    To avoid this problem, SMS has provided a workaround (not a solution) where we are required to convert the bendings to post/pre-pended before and after any JCM editing, or else your mesh will break. In this case, it doesn't matter if you used auto-group or grouped the mesh elsewhere, since Poser always splits the mesh internally. We can only hope that ONE DAY Poser will support unimesh internally, so none of this would happen.



  • @eclark1849 said in Portugal... hmm...:

    @Glitterati3D said in Portugal... hmm...:

    @eclark1849 It's NOT just their marketing and hype. See my post immediately after yours about the MFD - that's not "hype" that sells 5 versions of the same danged dress - that's customer conditioning.

    The DAZ vendors all wreck havoc on any customer who DARES to suggest that buying the same dress 5 times is silly. Because DAZ vendors stick together and aren't trying to stab each other in the back day in and day out.

    They're part of the customer conditioning.

    Don't know if I completely agree, Traci. I only bought two versions of the MFD, and both times were when that figure really didn't have much else to wear. I also bought the Morphing Cocktail Dress and the Morphing Starlet dress. Both dresses had a few extra textures for them, but I didn't perceive either of them being as successful as the MFD. And Stephanie Petite had an MFD as well, which I also bought. Different circumstances for me there. I knew I could use V3's MFD textures on the dress and I was using it in a story I was writing at the time. So, all in all, different time, different era. As far as today's Market, I'm going to stick with it's all about Genesis marketing and hype.

    The MFD was just an example, Earl. It doesn't stop there.

    One has to wonder why, with autofit, DS customers felt the need to buy the 2nd copy for a new figure.

    Oh, autofit isn't perfect? No shit, sherlock!

    But to hear Poser users tell it, by GAWD, they're going to DS because Poser doesn't have the oh so glorious autofit!

    I spend days on a Poser outfit just ensuring the breast PBMs don't create boob socks. DS customers get boob socks and have to purchase another product to clear them.

    That's customer conditioning.



  • @Glitterati3D Traci, I agree with you. But I do happen to also believe that a big part of the problem for SM in regards to Poser is poor Marketing on their part. Case in point. Go to DAZ and what do you see? DAZ blowing trumpets over all of it's technology in both Genesis and Studio. And even though much of what they're hyping is over ten years old, they're still promoting it like they discovered it just yesterday. Now, go over to Content Paradise and find the Poser 11 page. The difference is like night and day.



  • @eclark1849 What I'm getting at is it's like showing someone a soda, a bag of chips and a balogna sandwich versus a Big Mac, fries and a shake. Which one looks more appetizing to someone who's hungry?



  • @eclark1849 SM could have the slickest, meanest, most bad ass marketing ever, and still be unable to compete with FREE.

    Why would they throw good money after bad?



  • @Glitterati3D People will pay for it as long as they see value in what they're paying for. If that weren't true Maya and 3DS Max would be on the ropes from Blender. And Poser would have already have bitten the dust.



  • @eclark1849 Maya and 3DS Max are offered to students for free. This is exactly what IBM did - give STUDENTS free access and they create brand loyalty and a skill set that will move into the professional market, at full price as those students become professionals.

    THAT'S marketing. Big difference from DS.


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    @Glitterati3D Stacey, here I really disagree. Like @eclark1849 is telling, people are willing to pay Software as long it is valuable . Look as example, you could never "sell" me to Inkspace or Gimp. They are free, but each time I want to give them a try , I was on the edge of an nerve breakdown. Hate those two apps with a passion.
    And stay with my payed version.
    My husband, very long 3DSMax maniac, now since a few months he move to Blender. But only because the Cloud payment from Autodesk. For a hobby artists like him simply not worth to pay this monthly subscription price.He open his modeler sometimes for 2-3 months not.
    Otherwise he would stay with Max.



  • This thread is about Portugal (more or less) but do you know where to find this country ?
    For the more geographically challenged, here is our geography teacher.

    0_1530537918058_v4 josh map europ txt.jpg



  • @Ladonna Sorry, Ladonna, I'm not talking about the small, independent business person. I'm talking about the college student who was educated on Maya/3DSMax who went into the corporate world and had responsibility for purchasing decisions.

    Those folks are brand loyal because they were taught on those products. They wouldn't even consider trying to manage a dev team on a piece of software they know nothing about.


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