Portugal... hmm...



  • @eclark1849 It's NOT just their marketing and hype. See my post immediately after yours about the MFD - that's not "hype" that sells 5 versions of the same danged dress - that's customer conditioning.

    The DAZ vendors all wreck havoc on any customer who DARES to suggest that buying the same dress 5 times is silly. Because DAZ vendors stick together and aren't trying to stab each other in the back day in and day out.

    They're part of the customer conditioning.



  • @eclark1849 said in Portugal... hmm...:

    @j.naylor73 I really only fault Poser/SM for one or two things. Marketing and hype. I have to give to DAZ on this one. They are the undisputed king of Marketing and hype. I've often given SM a pass in the past by saying that they are not a content company, they are a Software company. And I'm not a "Content is king" advocate.

    Hmm... that's a good phrase, "Content is king". I never considered one way or the other. But for certain when I looked at iClone 7 a few months ago, a superb software for $150, I completely moved away from even trying it because of the proprietary content. I didn't even want to risk liking it.



  • @Glitterati3D said in Portugal... hmm...:

    @eclark1849 It's NOT just their marketing and hype. See my post immediately after yours about the MFD - that's not "hype" that sells 5 versions of the same danged dress - that's customer conditioning.

    The DAZ vendors all wreck havoc on any customer who DARES to suggest that buying the same dress 5 times is silly. Because DAZ vendors stick together and aren't trying to stab each other in the back day in and day out.

    They're part of the customer conditioning.

    Don't know if I completely agree, Traci. I only bought two versions of the MFD, and both times were when that figure really didn't have much else to wear. I also bought the Morphing Cocktail Dress and the Morphing Starlet dress. Both dresses had a few extra textures for them, but I didn't perceive either of them being as successful as the MFD. And Stephanie Petite had an MFD as well, which I also bought. Different circumstances for me there. I knew I could use V3's MFD textures on the dress and I was using it in a story I was writing at the time. So, all in all, different time, different era. As far as today's Market, I'm going to stick with it's all about Genesis marketing and hype.


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    In spite of the heated tone, there are some pretty good arguments here. I was surprised when SMS came with such great ideas for the next Poser version, but even MORE surprised when they didn't advertise them with the emphasis they deserved. For instance, it took me MONTHS until I finally realized what "unimesh skinning" was about - and consider I was from the insider team. In short, SMS has AWESOME features in there for Poser, but their marketing S-U-C-K-S big time.

    Perhaps this is one reason why so many are unsatisfied with Poser - many of the great stuff is hidden under poor advertisement, or perhaps the utter lack of it. For all these people bashing us with what DAZ does better, there is a lot Poser does better, but fail to advertise about it, so people don't know it's in there. They forget the sheer number of DS users who are still using older versions, and refuse to upgrade to even version 4. That means there is a number of DS users who have never used or bought anything for Genesis - any of them. DAZ is not pleasing everyone, even in their own side of the fence.

    Maybe this could be more of a case of people thinking that the grass is always greener on the neighbors yard. Users and vendors on their side are not as happy about DAZ performance as some may think. Just look at how many vendors promptly left DAZ when HW opened doors back in 2013. Even if DAZ bought them all back later on, it doesn't change the fact that they left DAZ in the first opportunity, and without hesitation. And when they did that, they had nothing good to say about working with DAZ.

    It is silly to think that DAZ is doing so great because DS is supposedly better than Poser. Of course, it was created 10 years after Poser, so they had plenty of opportunity to improve on known issues in the new program. For once, conforming works light years better in DS than it does in Poser, but both programs have pros and cons. None is absolutely good on everything. This story that SMS has to "learn" from DAZ is getting old pretty quickly. It was DAZ who learned from Poser to be able to create DS. And people are sticking with DAZ because they maker better content, not the program. The only reason we don't hear them complaining about DS is because they didn't pay for it.

    But don't take me wrong - I still want Poser to seriously improve, but I have to be realistic. Now is not the moment to create that kind of expectation. The new dev team is inexperienced, and still rather "green" to make the deep kind of changes Poser really needs. If they will actually do it, they will need more time. I think that is more down to Earth.


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    @Glitterati3D One of the reason why they leave, ( some vendors told me. I asked a few, because i was interested about cloth creation for PE and had till now not that much experience) Poser user want to much. Should be compatible with Superfly, Firefly. Morphs, any kind of. Many textures. Conforming which autofollow perfect, without any issues ( they don't like the morph brush tool) and many other "features". And this to a low price. One vendor told me, (he stop creating for Poser 3-4 years ago,) at last it was just the pure hell for him to create for Poser. He move to DS and this is way less stress for him.
    He still make complex outfits, but here the people pay the fair price.( At last what is fair in this market)



  • @Ken1171 GET OUT MY HEAD!!!!!! :)



  • @Ken1171 said in Portugal... hmm...:

    In spite of the heated tone, there are some pretty good arguments here. I was surprised when SMS came with such great ideas for the next Poser version, but even MORE surprised when they didn't advertise them with the emphasis they deserved. For instance, it took me MONTHS until I finally realized what "unimesh skinning" was about - and consider I was from the insider team. In short, SMS has AWESOME features in there for Poser, but their marketing S-U-C-K-S big time.

    Uhm ... So what DOES this Unimesh thing really do? I mean, I know I have to swap to it whenever I want to subdivide one of my old figures, but apart from that ... what does it actually DO?


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    @trekkiegrrrl It temporarily welds the mesh into 1 piece again. If you want to paint weights or use the Morphing Tool to correct a JCM shape, or create a new one, this is what you should do first (just convert to unimesh skinning, don't subdivide), especially if you have used the dreadful auto-group. Otherwise, the smoothing brush will spike out your JCMs if you use it over a group border with other groups - especially the thigh groups.

    Unfortunately, this conversion is only temporary in memory, and your groups are still split. It doesn't fix the broken mesh, but it lets you work with JCMs and weight map painting. Even if you have properly grouped your mesh elsewhere, as soon as you load it into Poser, it will break it into pieces again, so the steps above always apply.

    To avoid this problem, SMS has provided a workaround (not a solution) where we are required to convert the bendings to post/pre-pended before and after any JCM editing, or else your mesh will break. In this case, it doesn't matter if you used auto-group or grouped the mesh elsewhere, since Poser always splits the mesh internally. We can only hope that ONE DAY Poser will support unimesh internally, so none of this would happen.



  • @eclark1849 said in Portugal... hmm...:

    @Glitterati3D said in Portugal... hmm...:

    @eclark1849 It's NOT just their marketing and hype. See my post immediately after yours about the MFD - that's not "hype" that sells 5 versions of the same danged dress - that's customer conditioning.

    The DAZ vendors all wreck havoc on any customer who DARES to suggest that buying the same dress 5 times is silly. Because DAZ vendors stick together and aren't trying to stab each other in the back day in and day out.

    They're part of the customer conditioning.

    Don't know if I completely agree, Traci. I only bought two versions of the MFD, and both times were when that figure really didn't have much else to wear. I also bought the Morphing Cocktail Dress and the Morphing Starlet dress. Both dresses had a few extra textures for them, but I didn't perceive either of them being as successful as the MFD. And Stephanie Petite had an MFD as well, which I also bought. Different circumstances for me there. I knew I could use V3's MFD textures on the dress and I was using it in a story I was writing at the time. So, all in all, different time, different era. As far as today's Market, I'm going to stick with it's all about Genesis marketing and hype.

    The MFD was just an example, Earl. It doesn't stop there.

    One has to wonder why, with autofit, DS customers felt the need to buy the 2nd copy for a new figure.

    Oh, autofit isn't perfect? No shit, sherlock!

    But to hear Poser users tell it, by GAWD, they're going to DS because Poser doesn't have the oh so glorious autofit!

    I spend days on a Poser outfit just ensuring the breast PBMs don't create boob socks. DS customers get boob socks and have to purchase another product to clear them.

    That's customer conditioning.



  • @Glitterati3D Traci, I agree with you. But I do happen to also believe that a big part of the problem for SM in regards to Poser is poor Marketing on their part. Case in point. Go to DAZ and what do you see? DAZ blowing trumpets over all of it's technology in both Genesis and Studio. And even though much of what they're hyping is over ten years old, they're still promoting it like they discovered it just yesterday. Now, go over to Content Paradise and find the Poser 11 page. The difference is like night and day.



  • @eclark1849 What I'm getting at is it's like showing someone a soda, a bag of chips and a balogna sandwich versus a Big Mac, fries and a shake. Which one looks more appetizing to someone who's hungry?



  • @eclark1849 SM could have the slickest, meanest, most bad ass marketing ever, and still be unable to compete with FREE.

    Why would they throw good money after bad?



  • @Glitterati3D People will pay for it as long as they see value in what they're paying for. If that weren't true Maya and 3DS Max would be on the ropes from Blender. And Poser would have already have bitten the dust.



  • @eclark1849 Maya and 3DS Max are offered to students for free. This is exactly what IBM did - give STUDENTS free access and they create brand loyalty and a skill set that will move into the professional market, at full price as those students become professionals.

    THAT'S marketing. Big difference from DS.


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    @Glitterati3D Stacey, here I really disagree. Like @eclark1849 is telling, people are willing to pay Software as long it is valuable . Look as example, you could never "sell" me to Inkspace or Gimp. They are free, but each time I want to give them a try , I was on the edge of an nerve breakdown. Hate those two apps with a passion.
    And stay with my payed version.
    My husband, very long 3DSMax maniac, now since a few months he move to Blender. But only because the Cloud payment from Autodesk. For a hobby artists like him simply not worth to pay this monthly subscription price.He open his modeler sometimes for 2-3 months not.
    Otherwise he would stay with Max.



  • This thread is about Portugal (more or less) but do you know where to find this country ?
    For the more geographically challenged, here is our geography teacher.

    0_1530537918058_v4 josh map europ txt.jpg



  • @Ladonna Sorry, Ladonna, I'm not talking about the small, independent business person. I'm talking about the college student who was educated on Maya/3DSMax who went into the corporate world and had responsibility for purchasing decisions.

    Those folks are brand loyal because they were taught on those products. They wouldn't even consider trying to manage a dev team on a piece of software they know nothing about.



  • @Glitterati3D
    Student versions are a good thing. But I'm not a student. And I'm using Maxon's C4D for a very long time now. I have no problem to spend money for things I have a use for.

    On the other side: I usually do not spent money for Poser content. Ok, I couldn't resist to buy Project Evolution (and found out: I have no use for it).

    I have no reason to buy cloth. My experience says: most of it is not useful for me or is not worth my money (the dynamic cloth you made and showed to us is a good example for that).

    Poser is a hobby for me. I love to make morphs, cloth and items just for fun (I'm very fast with that). And I love to share some items I made.


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    @Glitterati3D My step son just finish his study in industry Graphics .
    You would be surprised how many apps they had . Even Blender.



  • One question I would like to ask. This view that DAZ users will buy the same products for different products, but Poser users won't, has anybody really put it to the test?
    I know there are people who come on here talking about how they convert everything and the fitting room means they don't need to buy anything new, but is that true for most customers? I know it's not for me. To give an example, I converted Ken1171's superhero suit for Dawn to Bella so I could use the fashion vol 1 textures to give her a variety of sf and fantasy clothes. Unfortunately I ran into problems trying to use the fantasy textures, I'd post a pic but don't know how to tag with nsfw. Suffice it to say when I apply the fantasy textures to the suit bella is wearing I end up with an outfit more suitable to breast feeding than adventuring!
    Now if Ken produced a version of the suit for Bella which could use the textures I'd buy it.
    I would be willing to buy other clothing converted by the original vendor for various figures as this would save me time and they could do a much better job than I could of ironing out any bugs.
    Of course the only way to find out if users would buy is to do it and put it on sale, and I realise that for any vendor they might not be willing to take the risk, everybody has bills to pay and spending time making something they believe won't sell is a stupid move, but I can keep dreaming of multi-purpose multi-figure (conforming) outfits coming to the market!


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