How to create realistic bends n Poser figures.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Tja, could not go to bed.....
    Just looked at some sports video's where athletes have to twist their arms, and the collar-shoulder twist happens at the joint in the center of the arm.
    Just looked in the mirror too. And the end point of the collar bone hardly moves with arms twist. The twist is in the center.
    (Tja, I do have a full body mirror here, solely for posing purposes.)
    Night-night now. Have a good W-End all. (Thanks for the video sir.)

  • Thanks so much for posting your video Paul. Much appreciated. Yes, several ways to skin a cat, or rig a figure for a pleasing and desired outcome.

    Concessions are a common concern and occurrence within the limitations of software tools. Paul has done a fabulous job rigging all of our HiveWire figures and animals to date. Our goal is to provide a product that works equally as well in Poser and DAZ Studio, as Paul has stated, and achieve a natural kinetic motion that is believable, and do so in an efficient manner.

    I believe our figures and products are solid. Can we still make improvements? Of course, and as Paul has said we've taken note of ideas to incorporate in subsequent updates or versions to improve rigging and other aspects. But for now we hope folks enjoy our figures, and find value in using them.

  • @hivewirechris said in How to create realistic bends n Poser figures.:

    Thanks so much for posting your video Paul. Much appreciated.

    @etujedi is Paul??? I didn't realize that when I went to look at the video at YouTube. I probably should've realized that, but old age is definitely setting in. ~wink~

  • @miss-b Being a Jedi, has it's advantages.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @hivewirechris Chris, as you know I am working currently on an outfit for Dusk. This outfit is a huge challenge for me, because very complex and I never used before Dusk.
    But, I am impressed how great Dusk is rigged and weightmaped, grouped. He is solid and a real fun to work with.

  • @shvrdavid said in How to create realistic bends n Poser figures.:

    @miss-b Being a Jedi, has it's advantages.

    Move along. Nothing to see here. ~wink~

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @vilters Tony thank you for your effort.I think for many Poser users this Posing method and the Dependency is not well known. Not many tutorials are out for this Poser feature ( Mea Culpa) .
    Great video.

  • This post is deleted!

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Please allow another suggestion.

    All 3D figures have only 2 Joints that absolutely have to be in their correct position.
    The collar-shoulder joint, and the hip-thigh joint.
    Those 2 are the most difficult and the most critical for correct figure bending.

    Over at Hivewire I read a post about trouble in the crotch area and the JCM's in that area.

    Here is a screengrab of what I think about the issue.
    I tried to overlay an X-Ray over Dawn and see the same issue as with the collar-shoulder joint.
    (Yes, the legs on the X-Ray are more closed, but could not find a better one.)
    As you can see the thigh joint centers are also too low on Dawn.

    Then I went to check the weight-bulge maps, the bones, the dependencies and found exactly what Ken found and reported at Hivewire (So I am telling nothing new either)

    What I did.

    • Pulled the Joint centers UP to their correct position.
    • Repainted the weightmap in bend, side-side and twist and guess what?
      Upper Dawn has correct Joint positions and No JCM's required any more.
      (And I did it only roughly in 30 minutes or so just to demo.)
      Lower Dawn is the original one.

    My friends,
    It is my humble opinion that a JCM should never be used to repair, correct, or improve an existing rigging.
    => That has to be done in the rigging itself and proper weight-bulge map painting, and the ONLY requirement to get a good rigging is to use the correct Joint centers in their correct positions.

    A JCM is a very valid tool to "ADD" muscle movement that you can not get otherwise.
    Bones are as hard as , well, bones. They don't bend but break.
    Muscles tend to inflate or deflate during movement and are good JCM candidates.
    Best regards, Tony

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @vilters That is an interesting point, the one about moving the thigh origins higher. However, the crotch shape issues I am correcting are caused by the weight maps and JCMs, not the joint centers. The way the thigh weights were painted, they do not preserve the crotch shape, and that is what I am correcting with my project. Anyone who has used Dawn for long enough must have surely noticed this issue, for it's not just about the figure shape when posed, but also how it affects the clothing. I plan to correct all this, and it doesn't require changing the joint centers. Doing that would invalidate the weight maps, so it's not allowed at this point.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Oops, I hit ENTER to start a new paragraph, and it submitted my post instead, while not allowing me to modify it. So here goes the rest of what I wanted to say.

    I have learned everything I needed to know about the Dependency Editor straight from the Poser manual PDF that ships with the program. You can find it at the documents folder. Personally, I have found the information clear and easy to follow. The process of creating dependencies is rather simple, so I had no trouble following the instructions.

    However, the interface was not complete in Poser 10. They only added the "Value Operations" tab in Poser 11, and now we can finally create ValueOps dependencies without having to hack the Poser files. This is especially useful when creating JCMs, which is what I do the most in both clothing rigging and figure morphs. Here again, everything I needed to know was found in the Poser manual.

    The interface is very clear and intuitive. The Dependency Editor in Poser makes it quick and easy to create dependencies and valueOps. It allows creating dependencies with multiple keys, while in DS we can only have a single one, which is very limiting. DS also lacks a single interface where all parts of dependencies can be set up, forcing us to jump around different panels to have the job done.

    My only gripe with the Dependency Editor is that the lists cannot be resized (difficult to find items in long lists), and lists do not respond to mouse scrolling. There is also a bug that messes up the lists when scrolling, where things disappear and we cannot bring them back. I suspect this might be because the list has a vertical scroll bar, but not a horizontal one. If we try to delete multiple items from the list, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Besides that, it does the job very well.

  • To me, the thigh joint and the shoulder joint both present an issue with just about every rigging system.
    Tony mentioned that the thigh joint has to be in the right place. And that is true, only depending on how you rig it.
    Lets use the thigh as an example.

    The upper joint, and the center line of the bone (in a real person), don't line up.
    With standard rigging, the leg side to side may look right when you rig it.
    But when it is bent out to the side, is it still the right length?
    Too long, too short? Most likely, it is going to be one or the other depending on the Y center of the joint.
    The rigging system will change that as well.
    What about front to back? Hows the length then?
    There are tons of examples of how to rig a thigh out there, lots of figures to choose from.
    Different numbers of bones, etc.
    But how many of them, have the proper length when bent....

    Everyone that rigs, has a different style.
    This and many other threads, show that very well.
    It also shows the limitations in the rigging system being used.
    Just about every rigging system has trade offs.
    Throw a figure into different programs, and be basically the same in both?
    Well, Dawn did just that.

    Hivewire3D did an excellent job with Dawn.
    She continues to flourish in 2 different programs at the same time.
    And the key to that is bending as close as possible to itself, in different programs.
    And that, also corrolates to the joint centers.

    Rigging anything, is a system of trade offs.
    Rigging it to work in two different programs, have conformers work in both, etc, adds more trade offs.

    Throwing all these ideas around, is how we learn to get around them.

    One thing to remember.
    If I think I am right, does that make me wrong?
    Food for thought....

  • This is a very encouraging thread to read! I'm seeing all of the qualified assertions that indicate people are reading and understanding the necessary caveats others are expressing in this debate. Excellent!

    [Further, pages of commentary deleted when I realised I was just reiterating what others have already said ;-) ]

    I particularly appreciate @vilters concession that:

    A JCM is a very valid tool to "ADD" muscle movement that you can not get otherwise.
    Bones are as hard as , well, bones. They don't bend but break.
    Muscles tend to inflate or deflate during movement and are good JCM candidates.

  • @ken1171 I would like to also mention that vilters is demonstrating the exact opposite of the issue you are working to correct in your post. Your comments are about the thighs when they are used side-side in a crunching pose, NOT side-side in the splits.

    Dawn doing the side splits is an entirely different issue in clothing from Dawn crossing her legs in front of her. While it is the same joint rigging, it is entirely separated from Dawn's current thigh JCMs which work on the outer thigh only.

  • @glitterati3d An example of the difference with Dawn's JCMs and current rigging:


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Your point must be that you can cover all up behind clothing?

    The prime of this tread was how you can improve bending by adding Dependencies Controlled Bending.
    => A procedure not very well known by most end users but it deviated into :
    We are discussing the position of Joint centers and to add JCM or not.

    Most content creators, not only for Dawn but also for PE are having the fights of their lives with JCM's, so the point is made.
    NEVER ever add a JCM in a rig to correct an unsatisfactory bend, but build and repair the rig properly and avoid rigging repair JCM's AT ALL COST.
    JCM's are for muscle movement, not for bone correction movements.

    • Ken builds JCM's to fight the existing JCM's.
    • I delete the JCM and repaint
    • Or you can hide the lot behind clothing

    Always multiple ways to Rome.

  • @vilters You are the one who brought Ken's thread into this discussion, even going on HW in his thread directing them back here.

    And, yet, you neglect to cover what Ken's thread is even addressing. And, then, try to pretend like I am the one changing the subject. Oooops, you actions betray you!

  • Poser Ambassadors

    This tread started with the best of intentions and turned into a very sensitive matter when joint positions and JCM's became the center of attention. Both issues are extremely closely related and each member reading the posts here and there understands the problematic and appreciates Pauls and Chris feedback.

    We managed to keep the tread polite and constructive, let us keep it this way. Thank you.

  • @vilters OK, then let's be brought Ken's corrective morph work into the discussion. The specific morph work addressing the issue I showed examples of. Can you please address how your "magic" rigging resolves the work Ken is doing?

  • You all might want to consider that this little corner of the 3D universe is the only place that believes you can have a single figure with a single rigging that can be anything and everything. The major movie studios have dozens of rigs for each of their characters and use them for the movement types that are called for in the shot. Make a different version of the character and they make a dozen more rigs. possible.even remotely Until the programs get tot the point of having every muscle and tendon rigged and accounted for and clothing is no longer conforming then and only then is the discussion about realistic bending