How to create realistic bends n Poser figures.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Hint, hint, hint ….. I hr before revealing ! ! !

    So strange. Not a word from the inventors them selves.

    And . . .
    And . . .
    This is so strange. . . Nobody recognizes the system?

    Everybody has it, and has been using it. . . . . on at least 5 different figures, if not at least on 4.

    Well, one more hr to go. LOL.

    Time for a walk with a cigarette, some fresh coffee, and time to make the video.

    See ya in a hr guys.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Hello guys, here is the link tot the follow-up video on Dependency Controlled Bending in Poser.

    The system was invented in 2014 by the previous Poser team and implemented in the Poser8 figures.

    2 things got the system in the "forget" corner. LOL.

    • At the time of inventing, we still had the old style conventional rigging that had its own limitations.
    • And I think I made the first complete tutorial on how to create those dependencies only yesterday.
      (I remember seeing a small tut floating around in the past, but it was not very detailed and did not go very deep.)

    The original Poser 8 figures were the first, and the system got used very deep into Miki4.

    On Miki 4 , they went a step further.
    There is a hierarchy where one dependency dial controls the next dependency dial that controls the bone movements.
    This is (among others) the case for the Right- and for the Left Arm, and then a dependency control that commands these Right- and Left Arm controls to combine them in a single "Both Arm Up-Down-Twist movement".
    Just open the dependency editor for each and you will automatically see what controls what.

    Conforming clothing.
    Does not care, it just follows.
    Just like an airplane engine does not care if it flies over land or sea, the conforming clothing does not care where the bend, twist or side-side comes from, or who controls what. It just follows the bone bends, twists and side-side of the figures bones.

    Dependency Controlled Bending is there to facilitate Posing.
    Like I show in the video?
    Make Alyson 'or Miki4 go sitting is . . . . . One dial.
    To lift the arms? When all is said and done ? One dial.

    Best regards, and enjoy the video. Tony

  • @vilters
    Wait isn't this a well known fact already ? The video kind of threw me off guard because I myself been doing that since day one (unless im just feeling lazy) but I always thought that was the norm,the way its supposed to be done.(then again I studied how miki posed and moved for a long time maybe thats why I always did it like that))always,Hmmm,even went as far as creating whole poses from just one dial turn..but since you cant see how the pose looks till you dial it in decided not to do that.
    Anyway good explanation and video on this.

  • Poser Ambassadors


    Ha, yes, it was always supposed to be used in this way.

    But you also see some of the reactions here.
    The system was not well known, SM never provided proper tutorials, and I made the video's following multiple discussions in multiple forums.
    But, honestly, I am very happy to see that I am not the only one that digs pretty deep in the technology.

    Best regards, and have fun using the Poser tools.

  • @etujedi Thanks for letting us know about this video. I just checked on YouTube, and it's by Paul Lessard, the gentleman who does all the rigging of the HiveWire figures.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Thank you for the explanations.
    I just looked at the video, but it is way past midnight here, so allow me to analyse it properly and give feedback tomorrow.
    First impressions are;

    • Why does the endpoint "jump" when the bikini is loaded, because half of your explanation is lost by that jump. => With bikini loaded the DAWN collar end point jumps down. => Delete the bikini, and the DAWN collar end point jumps back up, and this end point jumping was not mentioned in the vid.

    • On the issue of the weightmaps and center point changed?
      I changed the center point on the Right arm only, but did the weight- bulge map demo on the left arm with the original center point "as is".

    • With the end point of the collar bone so high up, Dawn gets dents and bulges in the lower collar when twisting. Clearly visible in your video around the 2min 30 sec mark.

    Thanks for the feedback video, will look with a clear head tomorrow, but some questions remain open.

    best regards, Tony

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Tja, could not go to bed.....
    Just looked at some sports video's where athletes have to twist their arms, and the collar-shoulder twist happens at the joint in the center of the arm.
    Just looked in the mirror too. And the end point of the collar bone hardly moves with arms twist. The twist is in the center.
    (Tja, I do have a full body mirror here, solely for posing purposes.)
    Night-night now. Have a good W-End all. (Thanks for the video sir.)

  • Thanks so much for posting your video Paul. Much appreciated. Yes, several ways to skin a cat, or rig a figure for a pleasing and desired outcome.

    Concessions are a common concern and occurrence within the limitations of software tools. Paul has done a fabulous job rigging all of our HiveWire figures and animals to date. Our goal is to provide a product that works equally as well in Poser and DAZ Studio, as Paul has stated, and achieve a natural kinetic motion that is believable, and do so in an efficient manner.

    I believe our figures and products are solid. Can we still make improvements? Of course, and as Paul has said we've taken note of ideas to incorporate in subsequent updates or versions to improve rigging and other aspects. But for now we hope folks enjoy our figures, and find value in using them.

  • @hivewirechris said in How to create realistic bends n Poser figures.:

    Thanks so much for posting your video Paul. Much appreciated.

    @etujedi is Paul??? I didn't realize that when I went to look at the video at YouTube. I probably should've realized that, but old age is definitely setting in. ~wink~

  • @miss-b Being a Jedi, has it's advantages.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @hivewirechris Chris, as you know I am working currently on an outfit for Dusk. This outfit is a huge challenge for me, because very complex and I never used before Dusk.
    But, I am impressed how great Dusk is rigged and weightmaped, grouped. He is solid and a real fun to work with.

  • @shvrdavid said in How to create realistic bends n Poser figures.:

    @miss-b Being a Jedi, has it's advantages.

    Move along. Nothing to see here. ~wink~

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @vilters Tony thank you for your effort.I think for many Poser users this Posing method and the Dependency is not well known. Not many tutorials are out for this Poser feature ( Mea Culpa) .
    Great video.

  • This post is deleted!

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Please allow another suggestion.

    All 3D figures have only 2 Joints that absolutely have to be in their correct position.
    The collar-shoulder joint, and the hip-thigh joint.
    Those 2 are the most difficult and the most critical for correct figure bending.

    Over at Hivewire I read a post about trouble in the crotch area and the JCM's in that area.

    Here is a screengrab of what I think about the issue.
    I tried to overlay an X-Ray over Dawn and see the same issue as with the collar-shoulder joint.
    (Yes, the legs on the X-Ray are more closed, but could not find a better one.)
    As you can see the thigh joint centers are also too low on Dawn.

    Then I went to check the weight-bulge maps, the bones, the dependencies and found exactly what Ken found and reported at Hivewire (So I am telling nothing new either)

    What I did.

    • Pulled the Joint centers UP to their correct position.
    • Repainted the weightmap in bend, side-side and twist and guess what?
      Upper Dawn has correct Joint positions and No JCM's required any more.
      (And I did it only roughly in 30 minutes or so just to demo.)
      Lower Dawn is the original one.

    My friends,
    It is my humble opinion that a JCM should never be used to repair, correct, or improve an existing rigging.
    => That has to be done in the rigging itself and proper weight-bulge map painting, and the ONLY requirement to get a good rigging is to use the correct Joint centers in their correct positions.

    A JCM is a very valid tool to "ADD" muscle movement that you can not get otherwise.
    Bones are as hard as , well, bones. They don't bend but break.
    Muscles tend to inflate or deflate during movement and are good JCM candidates.
    Best regards, Tony

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @vilters That is an interesting point, the one about moving the thigh origins higher. However, the crotch shape issues I am correcting are caused by the weight maps and JCMs, not the joint centers. The way the thigh weights were painted, they do not preserve the crotch shape, and that is what I am correcting with my project. Anyone who has used Dawn for long enough must have surely noticed this issue, for it's not just about the figure shape when posed, but also how it affects the clothing. I plan to correct all this, and it doesn't require changing the joint centers. Doing that would invalidate the weight maps, so it's not allowed at this point.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Oops, I hit ENTER to start a new paragraph, and it submitted my post instead, while not allowing me to modify it. So here goes the rest of what I wanted to say.

    I have learned everything I needed to know about the Dependency Editor straight from the Poser manual PDF that ships with the program. You can find it at the documents folder. Personally, I have found the information clear and easy to follow. The process of creating dependencies is rather simple, so I had no trouble following the instructions.

    However, the interface was not complete in Poser 10. They only added the "Value Operations" tab in Poser 11, and now we can finally create ValueOps dependencies without having to hack the Poser files. This is especially useful when creating JCMs, which is what I do the most in both clothing rigging and figure morphs. Here again, everything I needed to know was found in the Poser manual.

    The interface is very clear and intuitive. The Dependency Editor in Poser makes it quick and easy to create dependencies and valueOps. It allows creating dependencies with multiple keys, while in DS we can only have a single one, which is very limiting. DS also lacks a single interface where all parts of dependencies can be set up, forcing us to jump around different panels to have the job done.

    My only gripe with the Dependency Editor is that the lists cannot be resized (difficult to find items in long lists), and lists do not respond to mouse scrolling. There is also a bug that messes up the lists when scrolling, where things disappear and we cannot bring them back. I suspect this might be because the list has a vertical scroll bar, but not a horizontal one. If we try to delete multiple items from the list, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Besides that, it does the job very well.

  • To me, the thigh joint and the shoulder joint both present an issue with just about every rigging system.
    Tony mentioned that the thigh joint has to be in the right place. And that is true, only depending on how you rig it.
    Lets use the thigh as an example.

    The upper joint, and the center line of the bone (in a real person), don't line up.
    With standard rigging, the leg side to side may look right when you rig it.
    But when it is bent out to the side, is it still the right length?
    Too long, too short? Most likely, it is going to be one or the other depending on the Y center of the joint.
    The rigging system will change that as well.
    What about front to back? Hows the length then?
    There are tons of examples of how to rig a thigh out there, lots of figures to choose from.
    Different numbers of bones, etc.
    But how many of them, have the proper length when bent....

    Everyone that rigs, has a different style.
    This and many other threads, show that very well.
    It also shows the limitations in the rigging system being used.
    Just about every rigging system has trade offs.
    Throw a figure into different programs, and be basically the same in both?
    Well, Dawn did just that.

    Hivewire3D did an excellent job with Dawn.
    She continues to flourish in 2 different programs at the same time.
    And the key to that is bending as close as possible to itself, in different programs.
    And that, also corrolates to the joint centers.

    Rigging anything, is a system of trade offs.
    Rigging it to work in two different programs, have conformers work in both, etc, adds more trade offs.

    Throwing all these ideas around, is how we learn to get around them.

    One thing to remember.
    If I think I am right, does that make me wrong?
    Food for thought....

  • This is a very encouraging thread to read! I'm seeing all of the qualified assertions that indicate people are reading and understanding the necessary caveats others are expressing in this debate. Excellent!

    [Further, pages of commentary deleted when I realised I was just reiterating what others have already said ;-) ]

    I particularly appreciate @vilters concession that:

    A JCM is a very valid tool to "ADD" muscle movement that you can not get otherwise.
    Bones are as hard as , well, bones. They don't bend but break.
    Muscles tend to inflate or deflate during movement and are good JCM candidates.