Will Poser ever have a default higher vertex mesh model?

  • I honestly would appreciate an answer to this question.

    Will Poser provide a model with a higher vertex mesh at the zero subdivide setting?

    Is this something in the works for the future, and if not, why not? Again I mention this in attempt to understand without malicious intent, but to understand why the last models were made comparable to V4, instead of V7 since V4 is nearly ten years old, and limits what can be done in modelling?

    The higher the mesh count at the default setting the more amount of detail can be created out side of Poser which provides lots more realistic representation, and creative freedom for the users.
    I truly am struggling to understand why Poser has been held back in the modelling range.

  • Victoria 4 has 68,498 vertices
    Victoria 7 (which uses the Genesis 3 Female mesh) has 17,418 vertices
    Pauline has 35,217 vertices

    As you can see from the above Victoria 7 has the lowest number of vertices, the detail on Victoria 7 is added using High Definition subdivision, normal maps and bump maps etc.

    I doubt there will be a return of models with a vertice count as high as Victoria 4 as subdivision + maps has become a popular means of achieving detail.

    Much of the Poser/Daz workflow is geared around importing/exporting low poly models to other modelling/rendering software and game engines.

    Using lower vertice counts and subdivision is touted as less taxing for computers - giving faster calculation and render times

  • Poser Ambassadors

    All Poser meshes can be detailed as high as your computer will allow.

    Look at the Poser2Blender2Poser series of tutorials on YouTube.

    Video1 shows the correct import-export options between Poser and Blender.
    Video's 2 and 3 show how to detail ALL Poser meshes.

    If you need more detail then that? Go Bump-Displacement or Normal map.

    I propose this one : (That is video2 of the series)

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Also => Pure polycount says nothing about a figure's usability bacause on average, more then 1/3 of the polygons are INSIDE the figure. => The eyes, teeth, innermouth, tongue, gums and so on.

    It is what yo "DO" in 3D with the polygons that form the outer skin that is important.

    Remember : It is texture you see, it is texture you render.
    => The mesh is just the coathanger to hang the texture on.

    Basically, rigging is more important then pure polycount alone.
    Most know how to morph or sculpt any mesh into whatever they like but far fewer are able to completely rework a rigging.

    A "good" figure is always a combination of a good basic mesh, a solid rigging, and a high quality texture set.

    best regards, Tony

  • I prefer higher poly count for modelling.
    Erogenesis is working on a new model which is about v4 level. Hopefully we will see her early 2017.

  • 0_1476876456803_superfly 1b.jpg

    This by the way is a morph of Pauline at base resolution I did when she first came out.
    It is easier to model at higher mesh density, but this shows how important the texture is.
    I don't think normal maps are so good because they can't be altered.

    Need to try Vilters method of adding HD detail.

  • @qazart said in Will Poser ever have a default higher vertex mesh model?:

    I prefer higher poly count for modelling.
    Erogenesis is working on a new model which is about v4 level. Hopefully we will see her early 2017.

    If you mean Project E, I heard the creator gave up on that model. Please correct me if this isn't true.

  • No, it has been delayed. Ero couldn't get it to work in Poser 11, but now thinks that he has got over the issues.
    He is moving from Africa to the UK next month so that could slow things down.
    I hope to see her as a viable alternative to V4 or indeed V7.
    Can't wait to produce new characters with her.

  • You can get a lot of detail right from within Poser (not sure if it is pro only), and you very rarely see that mentioned.

    With other tools such as Zbrush, Blender, etc. You can go even further. Normals maps let you go even further.

    This morph, was created entirely in Poser Pro 11 on Pauline Advanced.

    alt text

    No need to export, fire up another programs, GoZ, etc. It's right in the program.
    Options are good, and even better when they are built in.
    Use whatever option you want, that is the beauty of having all of these options.

  • Remember that if you want to bring out a high-res version of Pauline or Paul you are free to do so. ;-)

    There was mention about an intention to make the other Poser Native figures becoming 'merchant resource' also. Not sure how that has progressed.

  • Pauline is rubbish. I pointed this out before she was released.
    See any pictures with her mouth open ? Thought not. Her teeth are a disaster.

    Open source is useless if people are going to charge $ for their adjustments. The only way Pauline can be sorted out is if we work as a team to put her right. Again I pointed that out 12 months ago too.

    I dont have a problem with Normal maps for fine detail, but they cannot be edited, so you need to create a brand new map every time you amend the morph - forget that !
    No, give me a decent base HD mesh, particularly in the head region.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @qazart It may seem odd, but you can get better detail into a low poly mesh by using SubD than you can from a high poly mesh, if the low poly mesh is designed properly. With high poly meshes a lot of geometry is wasted in areas that don't need much geometry and too thin in areas that need more. Most models have at least some amount of wasted geometry, but the goal is to try to minimize it as much as possible, which is much easier to do with a low poly mesh that is designed efficiently.

    Along with that, SubD divides your model 4 times for every one level. When you start out with a high poly mesh you are already starting out by limiting what you can do with that mesh, as half or more of the geometry is wasted in areas that you'll never see or that will never have much movement. Plus, it's much more difficult to weight map a high poly mesh than it is a low poly mesh, which I suspect is at least part of the problems Erogenesis has had with rigging Project E, though he may not be aware of it.

    Granted, Pauline is not the greatest model Poser has seen, but she has twice the geometry that Genesis 3 has, and in the right hands can look just as good as any other model out there, and still maintain a low footprint on your machines resources. Things like teeth are irrelevant if a modeler knows what they're doing. The mesh is versatile enough to do pretty much what you want with it in most areas.

  • @qazart
    Well, what holds you?
    Put down a proposal, form a team and improve Pauline.

  • @adi

    I've sort of looked deeper into this.
    You are correct, V7 is the lowest mesh count relying heavily on HD morhping, and the particular mathematical mesh technology type.

    I think I'll have to clarify that when I refer to higher mesh, I'm specifically referring to localized areas of a model where bending, or lots of movement takes place such as face, joints, including the hip.

  • @shvrdavid
    Her bent elbow is still too round for my tastes. Lack of definition in the wrists also makes it hard for me to look passed.
    Her face is looking much cuter though.

  • @AmbientShade

    I will admit I'm pretty ignorant of how you get a decent model from a low poly mesh.
    I only know that trying to even work with a low poly mesh is a complete pain. Having messed with Pauline to come up with that morph above, it was a complete joy to go back to V4.

    "Things like teeth are irrelevant if a modeler knows what they're doing"
    Pauline's teeth are half way down her throat. They are the wrong shape.
    For a base model to be versatile, you need the ability to move eyes and teeth independently from the rest of the face, and morph the head around those.
    No problem at all with V4.
    By my guest at fixing Pauline's teeth.


    I did propose this 12 months ago. No one listened. Vilters went off and did his own thing and so did ShrDavid. I said that I would contribute once these guys had done their stuff.
    Pauline advanced is excellent work, but it is not free for all to use so useless.

    Frankly my hopes are pinned on Ero coming up with something.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @qazart - try adding one subD level to Pauline & then exporting to obj (Poser can export the subD mesh). This will give you a higher res mesh to work on (comparable res I think to base V4). If importing the result fails as a morph target, try @vilters method of using the morph brush/fitting room to fit the morphed mesh to the standard Pauline with subD - then you can create a multi-res morph.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Search on youtube under my name, and the Poser2Blender2Poser series of video's.

    Video1 and Video2 will give you all the info required to get more detail in ALL Poser figures.

    You can use shvrdavid's method to use the morph brush on a SubD figure.

    Both method's need some time to learn properly, but both work.

    Exporting a SubD mesh from Poser does however NOT work as can be seen in Video4
    (Poser splits meshes into individual groups at export.)

    Best regards, Tony

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @vilters - I just tried exporting Pauline with current release SR5 & 1 level of subD; default settings at export (weld body part seams & include body part names ticked). Import to Zbrush reports unused vertices but works ok. Import to Modo Indie works ok. There is only one polygon group - Body - for the whole figure. Material groups are all there. Resolution is 138,880 polygons.

    So it would appear that it does work. As there are some unused vertices it will probably fail if imported as a morph target, but your & @shvrdavid's methods should work to create a multi-res morph.

    @qazart - depending on your modelling app, it should be possible to use the material groups to isolate & work on areas like teeth & eyes independent of the rest of the mesh.

  • @nakedfunn_ said in Will Poser ever have a default higher vertex mesh model?:

    Her bent elbow is still too round for my tastes. Lack of definition in the wrists also makes it hard for me to look passed.
    Her face is looking much cuter though.

    Thanks, all I really did is the back and upper arm on that one. I have been working towards doing the whole figure as well. The face morph is not HD, but I do have those in progress as well.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Correct, but no go. Allow me to explain.

    When you select "weld body part seams", you are exporting the figure as a single grouped prop. => You get a SubD prop because you just lost all vertex group information.

    You can rework that obj file to your liking but you are left with a single group prop.

    Importing back into Poser (as a prop) works, going through the setup room to get the rig back "might" work, but then, when you resave your "reworked figure " back to library, Poser cuts it back up into separate, loose, and individual vertex groups.
    => That is what Video 4 of the series shows (for clothing, but it is the same for figures)