New Poser figure in the making : Initial Feedback request. (NSFW)


  • Poser Ambassadors

    ETA: I meant to also add that she does look better than previous iterations you've shown in the past.

    But one thing, if you don't want people making "porn" then why did you give her nipples and pubes?


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @AmbientShade
    Quick answer before going to bed. => I have nothing against artistical nudity.

    Compared to the past figures? => This is a 90% new build/ cut-up, reglue, cut-up again. LOL.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @AmbientShade
    Oh,; and the public hair?

    That is on a separate layer in the master texturing file. => I can click it ON or OFF in the final texture I choose to work with.
    So are different brows, lips or nipple versions.

    When you build a master texturing file, you can set all body details on a different layer and mix as needed before saving or baking.

    So are the "lightening of the inside of the hands" for the dark skins, or color changes for Asian-like skins.

    All this is part of the technology and flexibility of this figure.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @AmbientShade

    Hello Shane,
    You asked why I use standard morphing and NOT use the newer facial control system.
    The same answer goes for : Why do I NOT use weightmapping for the whole figure.

    (Only the collars, the shoulders and both thigh are weightmapped, the rest of the figure is conventional rigging.)

    Answer : Because at this stage, I am still cutting up the obj file, and by using conventional rigging for most groups the rigging stays functional.

    IF I had gone to full weightmap, I would loose the rig at every obj file surgery.

    AND : Conventional rigging has a TON of advantages OVER the weightmap system.

    For example : On pants or shirts?
    On a conventional rig, you can add pockets, buttons or whatever at random. And the rig stays functional. (If all is welded and grouped properly)
    On a weightmap clothing item, you would loose the rig each and every time you do obj file surgery.

    Going over to full weightmap? Perhaps a day before release, if ever.

    And today?
    My deepest condolences to the lashes. => They are in the trash can and replaced by dynamic hair lashes.
    In Poser : We have 8, (yes eight) different ways to control dynamic hairflow, but the lashes are gonna be simple, and one less UV_Map to worry about, and above all, less geometry to take care off. => AND? LOL; Dynamic lashes ALWAYS follow the underlying geometry. LOL. => You NEVER have to worry about them in your 3D app were you build the figure obj file.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @vilters No, I never had much problem with that. The problems I've run into are mostly centered around various glitches that have come and gone in the setup room.

    I used the fitting room to transfer WIP rigs to WIP meshes on Orion and Venus, and then copied the weight maps to each new rig via the Copy Joints From menu option. Once I was happy with the current rig and geometry I swapped the OBJ in the cr2 so that the mesh was solid, since the fitting room still refuses to create a mesh that isn't broken. Rinse and repeat along the way until I ran into another issue that needed adjustment, changing, etc.

    I've lost track of how many iterations of their rigs (and meshes) that I have now, it's in the hundreds for each. More for Orion since I've worked on him more. Last time I checked my Orion backup was nearly 40gb.

    Usually only needed minor adjustments to the weight maps on occasion, depending on how different the groups were from one version to the next. I didn't bother with any of the traditional Poser rigging except very early on when I was considering making them compatible with Poser 9 and below (no longer the case).

    ETA: I don't know what's up with the last post. It posted my response to a different thread here, so I deleted it, then tried to edit with this post. So it may or may not be there in ghost form, lol.



  • @AmbientShade said in New Poser figure in the making : Initial Feedback request.:

    ETA: I don't know what's up with the last post. It posted my response to a different thread here, so I deleted it, then tried to edit with this post. So it may or may not be there in ghost form, lol.

    I cleaned it up Shane, no worries.



  • I give some feedback. Overall it's a great work towards realism.

    I agree that she looks aged around 40. She makes me think of Hillary Clinton, may be cause we see her too much. For me it's ok, i'm really fed up of young half naked pin-ups. No man, no old, no normal people, just "porn stars" rather looking like dolls. but if you want to sell it, may be you should do a younger morph. It's a fact that the market seems for sexual misery.

    The idea of integrated boots puzzle me too. Must find a way to remove them if we want.

    Ludovic.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Thanks for the downvoting guys, it shows that I am on the right track and keeps the motivation flowing.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    OK, clothing building time this W-End.

    Everyday, usable, and wearable clothes in layers.

    As the integrated hair and boots were on the top half of page one of the 7 page long spec list, they are here to stay.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    OK guys here some feedback on the feedback. (We are listening to you)
    @ibr_remote

    • An Asian look face will be included. (Asian eyes twisted ala Lucy Liu is already included.)
    • Lighter colored inner hands are in the textures already.
    • All is completely UV_Mapped including the boots. (All main parts are symmetrical in the object file and in the UV_Map to make it easy for end users to adapt the textures with any 2D paint app that can paint symmetrical (like Krita, that I use))

    @AmbientShade

    • We gave some more flesh (volume) to the cheeks and around the lips
    • The hands will be looked into. => Agreed, they need more work.
    • Never heard that there was too much definition in a default figure before. LOL => But I agree , the neck muscles are too defined. => Will be looked into. => Perhaps this strong "neck" definition gives her that "older" look?
    • Leg and torso height are similar to other Poser figures. And this compares to my ref material. => See the compare render above between Pauline, Roxie, This one and Miki4. => But I will investigate the joint thigh joint were the leg bends.
    • The collar / shoulder bends will also be X-checked with ref material.

    INFO : The dynamic hair lashes looked far better, but they are replaced by normal lashes again.

    Thanks for all the inputs so far guys, keep it coming. We are reading and listening.



  • Thanks, @vilters


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Not much, just a next dynamic hair test.
    0_1477671691301_testing13-forum.jpg


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @vilters I think it's pretty lousy that people are downvoting your posts here, especially if they aren't giving any input aside from that. Maybe it's an accidental thing. I've mistakenly down voted posts a time or two in the past, mistaking the arrow for a scroll page button, like they have at rosity and other forums. So maybe it is something similar here. At any rate, don't let it get to you.

    And even if someone doesn't like the looks of a figure being developed, there is still good information that can be learned in a dev thread like this.

    The improvements in the face are good. You might also look at the corners of the mouth and eyes. In real people there is an overlap going on, where the bottom lip tucks under the top lip at the corners of the mouth. The same is true with eyes. Small details like that may seem nit-picky but it goes a long way in selling the realism of a 3D figure.

    Also, I think her neck is too straight, giving her a stiffened unnatural posture. If you look at the side profile of a human, the neck is more of an angle and the head sits a bit forward.

    This is just one example:
    alt text


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @vilters said in New Poser figure in the making : Initial Feedback request. (NSFW):

    Disadvantage : Euh, I amputated the ears. :-( Now she does not listen any more..... But then, LOL, what woman does? ? LOL.

    Well, that remark deserves to be downvoted and doesn't have anything to do with the figure.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @AmbientShade

    Last visit before bed-time.

    Ok, now I see more clearly what you mean by "too flat".

    i"ll look into that tomorrow.
    Thanks.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @vilters - if you want feedback on shapes could you post some renders/screenshots using the front & left/right cameras with smooth shaded on, default pose, plain background & flat lighting please? Basically avoiding camera perspective & texturing. Would be easier to comment that way.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @Biscuits Ah, I didn't even notice that.

    @Vilters Good reference is one of the most crucial tools for any 3D modeler. Tons of good reference, from every angle possible, every body shape possible. It's very obvious whether someone used reference or just built something based on memory or how they think something is or should be. Ego makes us think we know what something looks like because we see it every day, but just seeing it every day isn't enough and can actually be detrimental because you tend to overlook small details, and then wonder why it doesn't look right in the end.



  • @vilters My initial reaction was "that looks like Judy", one of the earlier Poser figures. Which is neither praise nor criticism, just an observation.

    I cannot fault your decision to eliminate or minimise JCMs, but I'd like to share some critical observations on realistic 3D human figure development in general.

    Most things people find odd about 3D figures tend to be very subtle and subjective, yet our brains are hard-wired for facial recognition, and the "uncanny valley" may still be a valid consideration for 3D rendering, even though a 2D image is unlikely to ever be passed off as a living person.

    I have huge admiration for sculptors who work in stone and produce believable (ignoring texture and materials) human figures. Some of the master sculptors were even reported to have resorted to dissection of cadavers to explore underlying muscular and bone structure to give their creations added realism. Visual references are obviously an absolute necessity, but sometimes one needs to drill deeper. Multi-angle photo references of a subject to be modelled may provide sufficient information for a static pose, but when the pose is altered, will standard joint zones deliver the correct shape to be true-to-life? [That's why Poser was invented, so we don't have to dig up cadavers or work as volunteers in the morgue ;-) ]

    High-end modellers (I refer to PhD candidates, rather than software packages) look at things like constant muscle volume (the water in muscle cells doesn't disappear between the muscle's extension and flexion) which causes the skin to bulge when the muscle is flexed. Our joints don't all have fixed centres (The knee cartilage changes its radius of curvature as the knee bends so the tendons don't have to overstretch). The bones of the skeleton are essentially rigid, so joint zones need to account for possible bone-fixed exclusions. (Think of the hip-abdomen-chest joints twisting; the skin over the hip-bones and the bottom of the rib-cage don't move relative to that body part, which can cause creasing on extreme twists at the sides).

    TL;DR In short, at the very least, I'm advocating putting a skeleton (not joint bones, but a 3D modeled skeleton) inside your figure to inform what joint rotations should realistically look like and prevent poke-through. The skeleton doesn't need to be part of the model produced or hugely detailed, just scaled to fit your model's T-pose and conformed to follow.

    Anyway, It feels as though you're a lot further through the modelling process than my suggestions would have any impact on without a major re-design, and Poser is a long way from offering finite-element analysis for constant volume muscles. (Let alone dual-quaternion support, dig, dig, hint, hint ;-) )

    Keep up the good work!


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Judy? Whaw, never even thought of her before. :-)

    No, this figure started out as a reproduction of a real person. (but that was many moons ago) Then she got her own life. :-) when i said to myself ; "Why not make something releasable."

    It is not supposed to be a V4 or Gen replacement. Oh no, not by far.

    They (yes , they) are supposed to be "everyday clothed" and usable figures, right out of the box. This is for the "clothed population" here. :-)

    Everything that is under the clothes is just a bonus.
    But I am trying to make them as good as possible and as good as Poser allows me to do so. Yes, from time to time I also run into Poser's limitations, but let's work around those, OK?

    And I use some new technology, or tips and tricks. (or things nobody has ever done before.) They will also be Poser technology demonstrators with a Poser tech video on YouTube so everybody can get all the info about the figure, the dynamic hair, and perhaps most of all, the texturing and clothes technology. All this belongs to the "Poser2Blender2Poser" series that is already on YouTube under my name, and now you can add Krita to that list. At least one of these has to get done, before I can continue the video series.

    Have a nice day all.



  • About finding new ways: since you are exploring and not apparently afraid to take an unorthodox position may I suggest a few options to, possibly, advance the way we work?

    • boots conforming to the figure at shin level but shin having no geometry. Unless they are skin-tight, the 'sleeves' of boots move independent from the shin. At the foot there necessarily is little movement between boot and foot, or the wearer will have blisters. Therefore better make the shin part of the boot geometry a separate actor.
    • Same for jackets. Jackets and coats hang from the chest and shoulders. When I wear a jacket and twist my waist, the jacket at that height moves with the shoulders (unless I tied the jacket at the waist, of course).
      When I bend my torso forward, the hem of my jacket is pulled up at the back. Unlike a traditionally rigged Poser conforming jacket, the back of my jacket does not mysteriously become longer.
      Waist, abdomen and hip can have counterparts, with geometry and rigged from chest down, to simulate rotation or to be simulated dynamically as a body part as garment.