New Poser figure in the making : Initial Feedback request. (NSFW)



  • @vilters My initial reaction was "that looks like Judy", one of the earlier Poser figures. Which is neither praise nor criticism, just an observation.

    I cannot fault your decision to eliminate or minimise JCMs, but I'd like to share some critical observations on realistic 3D human figure development in general.

    Most things people find odd about 3D figures tend to be very subtle and subjective, yet our brains are hard-wired for facial recognition, and the "uncanny valley" may still be a valid consideration for 3D rendering, even though a 2D image is unlikely to ever be passed off as a living person.

    I have huge admiration for sculptors who work in stone and produce believable (ignoring texture and materials) human figures. Some of the master sculptors were even reported to have resorted to dissection of cadavers to explore underlying muscular and bone structure to give their creations added realism. Visual references are obviously an absolute necessity, but sometimes one needs to drill deeper. Multi-angle photo references of a subject to be modelled may provide sufficient information for a static pose, but when the pose is altered, will standard joint zones deliver the correct shape to be true-to-life? [That's why Poser was invented, so we don't have to dig up cadavers or work as volunteers in the morgue ;-) ]

    High-end modellers (I refer to PhD candidates, rather than software packages) look at things like constant muscle volume (the water in muscle cells doesn't disappear between the muscle's extension and flexion) which causes the skin to bulge when the muscle is flexed. Our joints don't all have fixed centres (The knee cartilage changes its radius of curvature as the knee bends so the tendons don't have to overstretch). The bones of the skeleton are essentially rigid, so joint zones need to account for possible bone-fixed exclusions. (Think of the hip-abdomen-chest joints twisting; the skin over the hip-bones and the bottom of the rib-cage don't move relative to that body part, which can cause creasing on extreme twists at the sides).

    TL;DR In short, at the very least, I'm advocating putting a skeleton (not joint bones, but a 3D modeled skeleton) inside your figure to inform what joint rotations should realistically look like and prevent poke-through. The skeleton doesn't need to be part of the model produced or hugely detailed, just scaled to fit your model's T-pose and conformed to follow.

    Anyway, It feels as though you're a lot further through the modelling process than my suggestions would have any impact on without a major re-design, and Poser is a long way from offering finite-element analysis for constant volume muscles. (Let alone dual-quaternion support, dig, dig, hint, hint ;-) )

    Keep up the good work!


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Judy? Whaw, never even thought of her before. :-)

    No, this figure started out as a reproduction of a real person. (but that was many moons ago) Then she got her own life. :-) when i said to myself ; "Why not make something releasable."

    It is not supposed to be a V4 or Gen replacement. Oh no, not by far.

    They (yes , they) are supposed to be "everyday clothed" and usable figures, right out of the box. This is for the "clothed population" here. :-)

    Everything that is under the clothes is just a bonus.
    But I am trying to make them as good as possible and as good as Poser allows me to do so. Yes, from time to time I also run into Poser's limitations, but let's work around those, OK?

    And I use some new technology, or tips and tricks. (or things nobody has ever done before.) They will also be Poser technology demonstrators with a Poser tech video on YouTube so everybody can get all the info about the figure, the dynamic hair, and perhaps most of all, the texturing and clothes technology. All this belongs to the "Poser2Blender2Poser" series that is already on YouTube under my name, and now you can add Krita to that list. At least one of these has to get done, before I can continue the video series.

    Have a nice day all.



  • About finding new ways: since you are exploring and not apparently afraid to take an unorthodox position may I suggest a few options to, possibly, advance the way we work?

    • boots conforming to the figure at shin level but shin having no geometry. Unless they are skin-tight, the 'sleeves' of boots move independent from the shin. At the foot there necessarily is little movement between boot and foot, or the wearer will have blisters. Therefore better make the shin part of the boot geometry a separate actor.
    • Same for jackets. Jackets and coats hang from the chest and shoulders. When I wear a jacket and twist my waist, the jacket at that height moves with the shoulders (unless I tied the jacket at the waist, of course).
      When I bend my torso forward, the hem of my jacket is pulled up at the back. Unlike a traditionally rigged Poser conforming jacket, the back of my jacket does not mysteriously become longer.
      Waist, abdomen and hip can have counterparts, with geometry and rigged from chest down, to simulate rotation or to be simulated dynamically as a body part as garment.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Project update for you all:

    Well, I was in for a "wild ride" this W-End.

    Changed the UV-Map yesterday hereby loosing about a weeks work.
    Changed the UV_Map again today. LOL.
    But? Almost back on track.

    Now we have only 2 maps ( diffuse and transmap ). Less lost surface and 33% more texture detail.
    And?? Super easy to work with in the material room. (also one of the main goals)

    This figure is going to be super easy to retexture for vendors and end customers.

    @fverbaas
    Yes, I am still waiting for what people want for "everyday outfits".
    We are close to starting clothing creation.

    While the figure is NOT fully weightmapped, I think most of the clothing will be to get where you and I want to go.

    Thanks for the comments, they are in the book.

    best regards, Tony





  • I never use dynamics. Is it possible to pre-style dynamic hair so one does not have to run a simulation or whatever it's called? If the clothes aren't dynamic, you'd be doing that just for the hair. Or, can you make dynamic hair invisible and parent a conforming hair?



  • In theory, yes, you can style the hair rather than draping it. But unless you're used to them, the styling tools can be rather unwieldy. With as short as Vilters posted, you probably wouldn't need to drape it except in more extreme poses. Slight tilts of the head I wouldn't bother.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    There are lots of ways to work with dynamic hair.

    There is just one MAJOR problem right now. => When you grow the hair directly on the figure as I do, the hair simm is lost when you save the figure to library. => BUMMER.
    => Reported to SM.
    Fortunately, I found an easy simm that goes well all the time. Joepie. => After reloading the figure, simm the hair (it takes no more then 5 seconds), and you are ready.
    => Advantage is that the simm goes better on a posed figure this way. => It follows gravity and is thus more realistic.

    • Yes you can style the hairs but that styling does not follow gravity when bending the figure. => You more or less turn a dynamic hair into a prop. (And it does not save to library when you grow it directly on the figure.) => Reported to SM.

    • yes, you can morph the figure ( load a head morph or FBM to get a different hairflow.) => Morphs work on dynamic hairs. => Recalc the simm, and the hair follows your new morph. => This works all the time.

    • Yes you can either delete or hide the hair to replace it by another hair .

    The hair will be included in the tech demo video that will accompany the release of this figure.

    Have a good week all.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Project unfortunately stopped till a solution can be found.

    Poser keeps breaking the obj file when growing dynamic hair directly on the figure and then saving the figure into library. Poser keeps breaking it up into individual groups.

    For those that are in the know it is 31615 AGAIN !!
    BUMMER-BUMMER-BUMMER !

    Bangs head into wall,
    Wall wins.



  • @vilters I think that is normal for Poser. If I add a dynamic hair to my figure and then decide to not use it the hair cannot be deleted in one piece. Each individual hair group has to be selected and deleted as if they were separate props.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @ghostship

    Close, but not exactly that.

    Normally we grow dynamic hair on a scullcap. And yes each hair group is a separate prop and can be deleted as such. You can add and delete as many hair groups as you like and it all more or less works.

    But when you grow dynamic hair directly on the figure, Poser "sees" these as becoming part of the original obj file. Poser "thinks" it is a "new" obj file, and when you save to library, Poser saves out a fresh obj file.

    Unfortunately,
    when Poser saves a fresh obj file to library, it breaks it up into a bunch of loose and individual groups.

    What you so carefully grouped and welded to get a good solid obj file, ends up broken.

    Back to the drawing board....



  • What if you make the dynamic hair a conforming figure?
    I have seen this done on V3 once. The 'moniker' as the creator named it was a conformer with head, neck, chest and shoulders stylized in coarse mesh but surrouding the figure and was transparent..
    The coarse mesh served as collision object and because there were not so many body facets for the hair to collide with the sim was pretty fast.



  • Pinging for information.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @F_Verbaas

    Hi, the problem is not for creating the dynamic hair, or simming the hair, or morphing the hair, or styling the hairs with magnets. => All that works like a charm.

    All works far better then anticipated. No need for a low res cage to collide against at all.

    The problem is that everything is LOST when you save the figure to library, and that Poser breaks up YOUR good, properly grouped and welded figure obj file into individual groups because it ABSOLUTELY wants to resave a fresh obj file when you grow the hairs directly on the figure.

    it should see the fresh grown dynamic hair as a prop, or cr2 embedded geometry, not as part of the figure itself.

    SM Mantis reports filed for all of the above issues.

    @maestro
    What Info can we help you with?



  • @vilters
    I meant to say: You probably do not care if the cage is broken into body parts upon saving, do you?


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @F_Verbaas
    Euh, that gets a simple anser. => Broken? => Delete button.

    Nobody can continue work with broken geometry => Properly grouped and welded obj files split into their individual groups at file save? => No pardon, no mercy. => Out they go => Delete, and revert back to the properly grouped and welded obj file.

    But?
    If you were sitting next to me? You would probable see a VERY big smile on my face right now as I got great news I can unfortunately not talk about. (but will do at the proper time) => Fingers crossed.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    It seems to me that this issue is because dynamic hair was added into Poser long after its initial release, and it has always been intended to be used with a skull cap.

    The broken up geometry is the way Poser has worked since version 1 and the only way to change that is a complete re-write of the core software. This is also why we still have to use geometry groups to designate body parts, because technically those geometry groups are the bones of the figure, so without them the figure does not have a rig. Ghost bones and helper bones are there and can be used - this is how Paul and Pauline have rigged faces - but they still require a geometry group to be anchored to. Most other software does not require geometry groups the same way Poser still does. The rig is its own entity and influences the geometry. Not the case in Poser.

    If it was something that could just be added in then it would have been done long ago, since people have complained about it for years. We have unimesh figures with weightmapping, but they're really only an add-on, and at that they're really only quasi-unimesh, since they still require geometry groups. Just like dynamic hair, the cloth room, the physics engine, superfly, etc, are all just add-ons to the core software.

    That is my understanding of the issue and why it has never been fixed, and won't be until the core gets rewritten.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @AmbientShade

    Completely correct info.
    Been Posering from P1 myself, lots of us haven been knocking on this door. LOL.

    Dynamic hair on a scullcap works great and I believe growing dynamic hair directly on a figure only came with P10/PP10. I was experimenting with it now because nobody seemed to use it. Now we know why. And (fingers crossed) , options are in the pipeline.



  • Just some constructive stuffs: (PS - Don't take my verbosity for "criticism!" I ramble, try to be complete and don't get to talk about this sort of thing very much, anymore. :) )

    1. Can we see some wires? Maybe a partial UV? Pretty please? :) A list of major bones/groups would be great, too!
    1. Why one map? I know multi-mapped objects can sometimes be a pain, but with the more modern tools that are out there, these days, the only reason not to multi-map is to.. not multi-map. :) (Barring those who don't have access to 3d paint tools, that is.) I suppose there are some material considerations, depending upon how the material effects act across groups/zones, but those don't seem to be too much of an issue. Resolution and memory space are always a concern, but that's for the user to decide with their texture sets.

    2. (Not sure if you're going for as close to realism as possible, though, so ignore if you're not.) On the object: It's a bit "wide." By that, I mean that the torso from pelvic girdle to lower ribs could be stretched a bit and it would be more proportional, overall. Either that or reduce the width of the pelvic girdle and then the hips a little bit and reduce the width of the chest area near the lats and lower shoulders a bit. Bringing in the shoulders a tad, from top to bottom, might tweak it up a bit. If the mid-chest region gets too barrel-shaped, bring it in some.

    On SM figures and their "proportions" - From what I have seen regarding realism and the "correct proportions" SM advertises (as well as many others who do this) is that the proportions may be correct, but the topology/structure is not. (ie: Sitting height ratio may be proportionate, but body features aren't located correctly nor are they proportionate to the figure.) I love Poser, but I have never seen a well done realistic human figure model in Poser's standard included lineup. (I've never had a "Miki" to examine and the farthest I ever got with DAZ products was V4/M4.) That being said, I wouldn't use them for a comparable reference model when modeling a new figure. I don't think there are any for Poser, to be honest. (Forget MakeHuman, too, since they're guilty of the same thing - block-moving body parts to force-fit scales/ratio.) I can get V4 "around where it needs to be" for that, but default V4 is too "heroic" for easy realism and, of course, it takes extra rigging work and the dreaded "JCM" or twenty to get the posing halfway decent.

    (You probably know or have all of this, but in case you don't- ) There are some great references online that aren't from the WHO (Which everyone and their brother seems to quote all the time.) ie: In particular, the US Department of Transportation (For safety research and is free) and a really good study across the age spectrum for Norwegians, I think. (Got it, somewhere around here.) These give actual measurements for all pertinent body features including facial features across a very wide spectrum of age groups and body types. With Poser 11 and it's measuring tool, fine-tweaking to specification is a joy. :) Also - 3dsk.com is the go-to place. There are also plenty of other places with very good human reference photos for free. (DeviantArt is one, surprisingly enough) With a limited subscription to 3dsk, you can be assured to get just about everything you need and you'll be guaranteed to get the angles/regions you need in detail, too. You probably already have a sub, but if not, it would be worth it at this point if you did not.

    1. On dynamic hairs - Just don't. :) I know, I know, it's easy in some cases and is a quick fix, but it's just not worth it. Transmap the lashes and don't bother with forcing dynamic hair into a CR2 - It'll just end in tears and most people are probably not going to want to be forced into the Hair Room. Including a hair-cap would be awesome, of course, and with Poser, fitting a Hair Cap to a custom Sculpt is a completely easy task to do, thanks to the Morph Tool and its many functions. (That darn thing is wonderful and I can't keep away from it..)

    (Unasked-for Opinion) Poser's Hair Room is outdated, is terrible to work with, gives mediocre results at best, and should never be used by anyone, ever... ever. :)

    1. Jawline and general facial feature are a bit too sharp at their edges. The jaw is a bit wide at the ramus/masseter, as well. (Not necessarily so for some extreme facial types, but only generally so for a neutral facial type.) The facial depth could be a bit more, as well. (ie: The midline of the upper face should come out a little more, making the bridge of the nose ultimate a bit further from the upper cheek area. (Tip could come out as well, with it.) The distance between the bottom of the nose and top of upper lip is a bit too much, I think. It may be that making the nose itself a bit larger, pulling it out from the upper face a bit, might make all the difference. (I can't truly tell since I can't see a non-expression version of the face.)

    2. The sternomastawhatchamacallit muscles in the neck are a bit far forward and too close together, IMO. This makes the trachea look narrow and makes it stand out a bit too much. Should be a simple fix, though. (Would love some wire shots... Wires are beeyooteeeful. :) )

    3. Breasts and thighs are like fingerprints - No two sets are alike. That's doubly true for women, since they've got a bit more fat in those regions. So, on those counts, it doesn't matter. I'd only say that if you decide to check the width of the upper chest and the shoulder regions, as well as any increase in y-scale on the torso in general, you may need to dbl-check where the upper chest and breast fat join the lower region of the shoulder. This area sucks for rigging and always has. Getting the flow right there is critical. (Maybe why you've gone with WMapping there, too?) IOW - Armpits are darn tricky things since they regions around them have such a wide range of motion. :)

    4. From what I can see of the toes/foot, you may want to broaden the region progressively from the ball of the foot (at "zero" lets say) to the ends of the toes (at +15-20% let's say) to get a more proper "wedge shape" look.

    5. On naughty things - Don't even worry about that. Your figure is going to get abused in dark basements across the Poserverse. It will happen and there is nothing you can do about it. Even if you don't include any specific bits, they'll get made for it. Even if you try some rigging/geometry/material magic, someone will "fix" it. If you want do keep certain portions of the body away from easy exploitation, hide some nasty JCMs in there that will foil casual modelers. ie: Legs spread, small region in naughty area gets its vertices so jumbled there's no quick fix other than to cover up that area with something. Very easy to do. For breasts, the fix is simple - No nipples or geometry to easily create them with. If Poser can still use the old compressed object format for CR2 references, you can keep the base object file away from novices, too, for a very brief time. (Prob not worth the hassle, though.) Note: (I thought about doing a bunch of "realistic" full figure morphs across the age spectrum from 5yrs to 80+yrs (In appropriate increments according to verified anthropometry measurements) for the Gen 4 figures, including multiple body types. I decided against it because of this very reason - I would not feel good about what some people might do with them and I started getting a bit... ill.)

    6. If you're including a "boots" morph, you may as well include other clothing morphs like gloves and the old bodysuit-whatsits morphs like V4 had, too. However, making material regions that are quick&easy to use with these morphs may not fit in your plan - It's up to you, of course.

    Thanks for reading, if you made it this far. If you didn't, and just scrolled down to read this line, that's fine too! :) Nicely done model, so far, and I can't wait to see how far you go with it!


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @morkonan
    That is some great feedback. Allow to answer later in detail please.

    Here another "teaser"; The U_V_unwrap look slike this. (Original is 8.192x8.192)
    0_1478029358717_FORUM-UV.png

    Remember, nothing is "final yet".