Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?

  • For me personally, the more I invested in creation software, the less I invested in off-shelf content. The time and money saved creating my own assets has become invaluable, plus the benefit of realizing my exact vision, and not a proximity.

  • If some really wanted to support Poser merchants, then they wouldn't wait for those "big bang buck" sales.

    They would buy the product when they need it, at the regular price (which is already appallingly low compared to other 3D products made for the "big" programs).

    Those "big bang buck" sales hurt the merchants in a double way:

    They lose the regular purchases because everyone is waiting for the sale, and if it is on sale, their profit margin is even lower because, of course, it's their profit which is cut, not the one from the brokers.

    Besides that, there's nothing the merchants can do about their product being put up for "sale" - it's simply octroyed upon them by the brokerage.
    If they don't comply, it's stricken off the product list faster than you can say "But..."

    And here lies the real problem for Poser merchants IMO:
    They already suffer from a rather small market, and SM's "advertising" does nothing to help them by growing the user base (recte: the market!)
    Just look at the countless "Is Poser dying?" threads all over the net.

    My opinion on how these "sales" work:

    They attract potential buyers to the brokeraqe.
    Probably they will also buy some of the items on sale.
    However more money for the brokerage is made by the "windfall sales" of other, non-price reduced items.
    There's a reason why their sites are plastered with ads for all and sundry other products. They hope that you buy them "once I'm here already", and "oh - that other product could also be useful to me in the next render!"

    Unfortunately the original artist who invested a month or more in creating the product now on sale for a sorry dollar doesn't profit at all.
    On the contrary: he loses sales which he could have made at the regular price!

    So the only winners here are the brokerages.
    The merchants have no chance because they are depending on this perverted system (Good Lord! 50% to just keep a computer program running to

    • host a promo page (made by the merchant himself!)
    • to provide some upload bandwidth to make the purchasers download the product.
    • run a program that will process purchases and payments automatically.

    And for this "service" they rake in the profits from someone else's hard work?

    I think I will open my own brokerage one of these days.

    Sorry for the rant!


  • @karina said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    Those "big bang buck" sales hurt the merchants in a double way

    Fully agreed there. No word is worn out more and is abused more than 'sale!'.

  • @kalypso Check your Rendo Site mail. :)

  • It's a multi part answer, but primarily because everything about Poser is negative, negative, negative now. Look at this forum. Look at the Renderosity forum. Look at the places where Poser is discussed. Nothing encouraging or forward looking is ever posted anywhere.

    Vendors have enough negativity in the entire process, they just give up when the forums just add to it.

    Every part of the commercial process is negative - once the vendor has finally finished the product, they get negative feedback from their beta testers. They repair any negative feedback, then submit it to store QA somewhere and get more negative feedback. They fix that feedback, get it into the store and then go to a forum and encounter even more negative BS - hell, the vendors are the bad guys in all this according to everyone.

    Then, the Blender cheerleaders start trying to push Poser users to Blender after they've declared Poser a POS software. I have news for you Blender cheerleaders, though - any Poser users who are going to use Blender already ARE. There's no reason they can't use Blender AND Poser, FYI. But keep up your campaign to destroy Poser, you're almost there.

    That there are any Poser vendors left at all is a minor miracle in an of itself.

  • The mega discount sales are what is known as loss leaders. Stores in real life have them. You'll see a lot of them next week called Black Friday sales. The point is to have a few things on deep discount (possibly the store even loses money on them) to bring people into the store in hopes they will buy other things while there. The difference is in the stores, they are taking the loss, not the manufacturer so it doesn't matter if you buy a loss leader from Sony while paying full price for an HP. Brokers should take at least half of the loss if they take half of the sale. If they are forcing the sale without a choice of participation, they should take it all.

    Most of the brokerages seem to have an option for vendors to sell products directly to them and they sell the product. With all the complaints of how brokers treat vendors, I wonder why more content creators don't go that route. Is the price they offer really that poor?

    As for why we don't support vendors, many of us do what we can, but that is only so much. Food, medicine, etc has to come before hobbies. When you only have a few dollars a month to spend on hobbies, you do that you can to get your money's worth. We need to choose, do we buy one thing for full price or 2 things for half price? Most economists would advise the biggest bang for your buck. I know that isn't the greatest news for the vendors, but me wanting to support them doesn't put an extra 20 in my pocket to spend for them. Of course, if everybody buys more e85 fuel (high octane gas) and are willing to pay a few dollars per gallon more for it, maybe, just maybe the price of soybeans will go up enough I can increase my spending on hobbies, assuming the ethanol plants don't just keep all the profit for themselves.

  • @glitterati3d Traci if you keep sugarcoating your answers like this we'll never get to the truth. :)

  • @redphantom Actually, I believe that both you and Karina have touched on parts of the whole truth that I do recognize. Those of us who were here back in the beginning are getting on up there in age. And while we still love Poser, there are other realities of life we also have to face. For instance, some of the money I would have been able to once buy some of the content I use in this hobby, now goes towards medicines and doctor appointments.

    And as Karina points out, Poser isn't exactly attracting new users by the droves.

  • All of the answers offered so far are valid, of course. Poser vendors are caught in a trap: prices have to be high because they don't sell a lot of product, and they don't sell a lot of product because prices are high.

    I doubt DAZ's big sales are loss leaders. I suspect they're slightly profitable, and they're done to excite customers. I do wish other Poser sites would experiment with big sales that provided some profit for vendors. It's the only way to get me to make an impulse buy these days.

  • @willshetterly The thing is Will, by the time all is said and done with these mega sales, a vendor is lucky to net $0.75 on a product. At that rate, we might as well just cut out the brokerage and give the stuff away.

    If the value to the customer of my work is so cheap, then I will simply quit offering it at all.

    Vendors make massive investment in the tools to create products - Poser, ZBrush, Photoshop are essentials. Then, there's merchant resources for textures, etc. If they can only sell at less than $1.00 net profit, it's not worth creating the products at all. So, if you're looking for mega sales, and it's the only incentive to purchase, then all the Negative Nellies are right - Poser is finished.

  • @glitterati3d I completely sympathize. But people won’t buy what they don’t feel they can afford, no matter how fair the seller thinks the price is. It’s a Catch-22.

  • I also sympathise, but isn't it better to get 0.75usd from a sale than 0.00usd from a no-sale? Before I retired at the end of last year I was spending 3-400ukp (375-500usd) a month on poser content, I've now reduced that to about 150ukp a month. I'm not going to apologise for spending that money as wisely as I could.
    Will I continue spending that amount in the future? Not unless vendors start creating and selling things I want, such as conforming sci-fi,/fantasy/historical/steampunk clothing for the latest poser figures. Maybe this sort of content won't sell enough to be worthwhile for vendors. In that case I'll just carryon using what I have for older figures.
    I can't support vendors if they don't support my needs.

  • @j-naylor73 Absolutely not. Not for me. That you consider my skills valued at 0.75 is an insult.

  • @willshetterly No, it's not a Catch 22. Perhaps at one time it was, but you are so short of Poser vendors at this point it's not even a Catch.000001

    When all the vendors are run off, you'll be left with nothing but low quality freebies.

  • I don't know. I buy from Poser vendors. Now and again, I do need just the perfect thing right now, and I'll pay whatever price I have to. But I buy vitamins when they're on sale, so why wouldn't I buy Poser things I don't really need that way, too? I outright enjoy the activity of converting clothing for figures, mostly Evo and Pauline, who have no vendor support for conforming clothing. I do buy some dynamic clothing for those figures and rig it. And I joyfully pillage DAZ vendors' work for G3 and G8 when good stuff is on sale for a few bucks and convert it. I react to market forces, I don't shape them.

  • @glitterati3d said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    @j-naylor73 Absolutely not. Not for me. That you consider my skills valued at 0.75 is an insult.

    I don't consider it an insult at all. I consider the market to be a hobbyist market with hobbyist prices. If I honestly thought I could charge and get professional prices I wouldn't be trying to sell anything here anyway. Turbosquid would probably be as close as I'd get.

  • @eclark1849 I don't know about "Stuck" but V4 meets all my needs as a hobbyist. Even though I have a huge runtime library already I still buy things for V4 primarily from Rendo and DAZ, even bought one today from DAZ" granted I'm at point where I don't actually need more items so I just add things I like to my wishlist and wait for them to be on sale. None of the Poser characters from Alyson to Pauline did I find in anyway useful..IMHO.

  • There is no single answer.

    As a customer, I feel the biggest issue is that most Poser vendors have absolutely no understanding of basic economics and marketing.

    For me, I am still spending money ($100 - $200 a month) - Daz got a lot of that due to their Annual Platinum Club sale. If a Poser vendor at 'Rosity wants a shot at that cash, they need to make something that hasn't been done to death. And that is the key - there are literally 1,000s of V4 characters (95+% early 20's Caucasians), 100's of lingerie and hookerware outfits, and such. With those niches saturated, vendors have three choices if they want to continue to make content -

    1. Accept less sales in a saturated market.
    2. Convert legacy content to newer figures. - I'd rather pay for a vendor converted V4 outfit for Dawn/Pauline/PE than work the fitting room (time is money) - but, hey, it is the vendors not converting their content the way the Daz vendors do every time there is a series of g figures released. Is that the customer's fault or the vendors?
    3. Make content in a less saturated niche. It may not be what you like, but what you like is less important than what your customers like.

    I would also point out that a number of vendors told customers over the years that if they didn't like what vendors made, they should learn to make their own content. Which, apparently a lot of us did.

    Please note - I am not addressing the whole I only make what I am personally interested in vendors. Those folks are not professionals; they are amateurs monetizing their hobby. Nothing wrong with that, but remember what adjective is most used to describe artists (starving).

    AFA Negativity on 'Rosity Forums. That is what happens when the 'Rosity forum moderators don't do their jobs and let the DAZ trolls run wild. Every Is Poser dying or New figure for Poser thread is populated by folks that either use DS or other products - Cinema3D in the case of Wolf359.

    What is worse is that folks like Wolf359 will NEVER buy ANY product from 'Rosity, (he as stated repeatedly that he would rather spend 3 or 4 hours making an outfit rather than buying one.), but the moderators will certainly let him poison the well.

    These are people that have at least an emotional investment in competing products, or in the case of folks like Male3dia, a direct financial investment as a DS exclusive vendor at Daz - folks that only use DS products that never spend time in the DS forums, just the Poser forums spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt). If I was a Poser vendor, I would be at least a little concerned about that.

    That is where the negativity comes from. The way to make that stop is to bring down the banhammer, but they won't; because reasons. And for those of you that slept through civics class in Jr. High, the 1st Amendment is about governments stifling speech. There are no "free speech" rights on a private forum.

  • @kalypso said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    Most of the Poser vendors that I've supported in the past 19 years are now working exclusively with DAZ Studio so that's my reason. I can't just buy something because it works in Poser, I have to want it and/or need it as well. Since this is just a hobby for me if there's nothing out there for Poser that I like then I just don't bother with Poser, I play WoW and now that Fallout 76 is out I'm getting a new hobby :)

    Pretty much the same story for me - most of my favourite vendors are now only working with D|S, and I have to admit that with the dramas of trying to create Genesis 2 cr2's for use in Mimic, I found it was easier for me to load up the 32 bit version of D|S and use lipsync,, then open the saved file in D|S 64 bit and render.
    Why do I choose to use Genesis 2 when there are plenty of Poser figures?

    • My favourite vendors plus the fact that the outfit I needed for the video was available for Genesis 2 ready made.

  • I only buy things when I need them... and when your library is bursting at the seems from years of collecting... you find you don't need new items too often these days.