Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?



  • @miss-b said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    @glitterati3d said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    It's really simple, actually. Stop the conditioning of your customers to the fact that if they just wait long enough, they will get your products at a fire sale.

    Perfect example - Hivewire added their figures to Renderosity. When they did so, forum posts went out immediately: "Yeah, the HW figures are great, but don't buy them at Hivewire. Buy at Renderosity because they are cheaper, and if you wait for a coupon, they're cheaper yet."

    So, after years of driving traffic to the HW web site, their customers just moved to Renderosity. Waiting for a sale.

    WRONG! You assume too much Tracy. Renderosity was the first 3D forum I joined back in April 2000, mostly because it was the only forum around at the time that catered to Bryce, my only 3D software app at the time. I didn't join RDNA and DAZ for another 4 1/2 years, so my first 3D purchases were at Renderosity.

    However, now-a-days I would NEVER purchase any HW products at Renderosity simply because of a "sale", because I can't believe the sale price at Renderosity would ever be lower than one made available in the HW store, very possibly at the same time. Oh, and as far as "coupons" go . . . the usual 10% coupon available for sale items comes to what, a dollar and change because you can only use it on a product that's $10 or more. The large coupon discounts of 35% and 40% Renderosity has issued this month are rare, and can NOT be used on sale items, even if they're over $10, so they're going to waste, because I can NEVER use any Renderosity coupon on software, scripts and the like.

    I don't know where you base your facts on HW customers moving to Renderosity, because I don't see it. I'd much rather purchase a product at the original creator/vendor site. The perfect example being Ali's hair products at Renderosity, because no matter what coupon and/or sale price, his(her?) own site is ALWAYS cheaper, and he(she?) gets ALL the profits. I just purchase additional texture sets at Renderosity, if there are any. Just because you assume folks have left HW to purchase the HW products at Renderosity, doesn't make it so. Will long-time Renderosity customers buy the products there rather than at HW because they don't spend any time at HW? Sure, THAT I can see, but to assume folks who have been purchasing at HW regularly for the past 5+ years will all of a sudden move to Renderosity for their purchases is a poor assumption.

    Oh an yes, your example of the Morphing Fantasy Dress, and all the figure it's been created for? That's one of the main reasons I stopped upgrading my DS past the original 4.0 Pro, and the original Genesis. I came back to Poser for that very reason. I was tired of having to get the SAME DAMN THING for every new character DAZ decided their customers needed. I let my PC+ membership expire 2 1/2 years ago, and I haven't missed it one bit, so assuming ALL of DAZ's customers just keep buying the same product over, and over, and over, again is wrong.

    OK, end of rant.

    Well, I signed an NDA with HW and though I am not a vendor there, I feel a moral obligation to uphold it.

    I base my post on FACTS, not loyalty, not personal feelings. That's just the truth.

    That exact post about Renderosity pricing on HW figures was posted at MULTIPLE sites and forum. It doesn't matter if it's factual (it's not, except the coupon reducing the price further) or not. It matters that the customer base believes it and abandons the HW site for Renderosity.

    Again, it's called customer conditioning.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Hello all,
    I stayed out of this discussion long enough, and my eyes opened after a recent discussion off-site.
    Here our “go” on the issue at hand.

    1. Digital content does not age.

    See the light aircraft industry (where properly maintained light aircraft don't age either).
    Right after WW2, Cessna started the light aircraft industry with the Cessna 120/140 series, and continued with the 150, 170, 180 series. Followed by the improved 152,172;182, and the 206/208 series. They build about a 100,000 light aircraft between WW2 and now.
    Production stopped completely for almost 10 years, (market saturation because those that flew did not age, and everybody, private and flight schools HAD their airplanes). Only recently they started a very limited production again, and are extremely happy if they can sell 50/year. Piper aircraft are in the same boat and Beachcraft like most other manufacturers stopped light aircraft production completely.

    The homebuild market took over where the big brothers left the gaps open, and those aircraft kit build factories sell thousands of aircraft kits a year. Rans, Vans, Sonex and so on, and the LSA and Ultralight aircraft are now blooming business in their segment of the market.)

    1. Detroit was the city of the car manufacturers.
      In the “golden years” cars had a limited life span and needed replacements. But quality and versatility improved, and cars started to live longer and longer and Detroit became a ghost town.

    2. The Poser/DAZ debacle can be broken down to 2 reasons.
      Poser content, good or bad, came free with the app and was never loved by the general public. DAZ found the hole in the market, and since then, everybody wants a date with the newest chick in town and DAZ plays the “refreshment game” like the king on his throne. Plus they have a marketing machine like no other, and keep their vendors on a short leash.

    In short: and more or less in the same order:

    • Digital content does not age.
    • Digital content became higher quality and became “reusable”.
    • Poser users already have what they need for most of the time and for most of their projects.
    • Everybody wants a date with the newest chick in town.

    Only the vendors with the best reputation will survive, just like Cessna and Piper are the only light aircraft builders that survived. (With very-very limited production runs, but they survive, probably on borrowed time also, but they survive.)

    As already mentioned above.
    The best reputation vendors don't need galleries or forums and rarely post a render in a gallery or chit-chat around in forum-land. They continue to build and continue to enhance their reputation in the quality of their products.
    They will find the holes in the market automatically, and they will survive.

    Best regards, Tony



  • Okay, people, let's not turn this into a free for all. My whole point in starting this thread was to list the factors we all believe are causing Poser Customers to not buy from Poser Vendors so we could address those factors preferably to correct or eliminate them.

    One thing I have noted is that there are three sides in this "fight"; VENDORS, BROKERS, and CUSTOMERS, and all three seem to believe the other two are the problem.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Allow another, even more "visible" answer.

    Everybody, from West to East, and North to South, (Globally, read that as worldwide) is building and flooding marketplaces AND freebie sites with clothing.
    Vendors must understand by now that trying to "survive" building clothes became wishful thinking some time ago.

    My friend needed to build a garden scene.
    Now, just try to find the "lot" , and I mean "the lot" of garden tools to maintain a garden / forest site.
    We ended up building EVERYTHING ourselves, because there was close to nothing with at least a minimum level of quality available, and the few/little we found had to be adapted anyway. => Faster to re- build from zero.
    Ground, grass, and tree's, some flowers and rocks, yes. All the rest was "home-build".

    There are so many holes in the market left, so much virgin ground left for vendors.
    Another area is construction work tools. Trucks, bulldozers; dozers, cranes, handtools, but yeah, I know, they are not sexy.....

    Also, here an example of a vendor limiting his own sales.

    • Glasses for V8. => Since when did glasses become "figure" dependent?
      Just a stupid example, I know, but there are thousands of those flying around.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @eclark1849
    Earl, there is no fight going on except that all clothing closets are full. (Overflowing)
    The clothes department is saturated, and everybody with any 3D app, can cut up any existing clothing for re-use on any other figure if required, and even retexture it with Gimp or Krita or whatever.

    • Hair will always sell.
    • Shoes are harder to convert, so shoes are a good thing to sell too.
    • Scenes and houses, and workforce items will always sell. (Limited numbers, but they will sell)
      Remember the Cessna and Piper examples above. If one part of the market gets saturated, move over to the next.


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  • @vilters This is just complete bunk. Not every Poser user wants to convert clothing. Not every Poser user chooses to fight with clothing that doesn't fit the model they are trying to use. Not every Poser user uses V4 exclusively.

    And, most importantly, not every Poser user chooses to deal with modeling, converting and messing around to create a render.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @vilters said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    The best reputation vendors don't need galleries or forums and rarely post a render in a gallery or chit-chat around in forum-land. They continue to build and continue to enhance their reputation in the quality of their products.
    They will find the holes in the market automatically, and they will survive.

    Best regards, Tony

    I disagree about that vendors don't need galleries and connect on forums and that sort of thing.
    In my opinion it's important to connect with the community, show interest in others and their art.
    Isn't an open mind what creating is all about afterall, talk to artists inspire and be inspired.



  • I think Evolution disproves Tony's comments completely. If Poser users agreed with Tony Vilters, Evolution would have taken off like a hot potato. Ero provided all the tools to make Tony's philosophy true.

    And, yet, Evolution still hasn't taken the Poser world by storm. One has to wonder why, and it boils down to simple reasoning - the customers discovered they had to pay (gasp!) for her.

    I purchased Evolution. Given how few renders we see of her except from her loyal fan club, I'd have to say I was in the minority.

    0_1542760252185_EvolutionPurchase.jpg


  • Poser Ambassadors

    This post is deleted!

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @biscuits
    I agree that it is best to talk and have an open mind.
    @Glitterati3D
    Correct that not everybody wants to invest time in converting, but you missed some of the rest of our remarks.

    Your comment about Evolution is valid. She requires work from and is too complicated for the load and render end user.
    She is a good figure, but not for everybody.



  • @vilters said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    @Glitterati3D
    Your comment about Evolution is valid. She requires work from and is too complicated for the load and render end user.
    She is a good figure, but not for everybody.

    That to me is the only reason she hasn't taken the Poser world by storm. I like her, and I even modeled a nice dress for her which could be worn either during the day, or in the evening, as I had also created 6 textures for it.

    Why hasn't it been presented to the public, even as a freebie? I've only gotten into modeling clothing this past year, as most of my modeling experience is for props and environmental stuff, and I still don't know how to rig. Evolution is just NOT the first character you should be using to learn to rig. True Erogenesis included a lot of goodies to make it easier, but I can't even think about trying to rig for Evolution without prior successful attempts to rig clothing for characters that don't require the amount of work she does.



  • @eclark1849 said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    Okay, people, let's not turn this into a free for all. My whole point in starting this thread was to list the factors we all believe are causing Poser Customers to not buy from Poser Vendors so we could address those factors preferably to correct or eliminate them.

    One thing I have noted is that there are three sides in this "fight"; VENDORS, BROKERS, and CUSTOMERS, and all three seem to believe the other two are the problem.

    This customer does not view vendors or brokers as problems. Market forces are impersonal. Blue Tree Studio, long a Poser-only vendor, just started releasing DS versions of its products on a brokerage that caters to both platforms. They are following the money, even though Poser users buy their stuff.



  • As a hobbyist, for me it comes down to money, sadly the outlay on Poser, even on an upgrade deal is considerable and it really has to be something I can't live without for me to spend out any of my disposable income on Poser Stuff (as I like to call it), also I have to take into account before parting with money the current exchange rate, [$AUD 1.38 ATM - that extra .38 cents on the dollar makes a big difference!] that can have a big bearing on whether I spend out or not, it is worth noting that not everyone lives in the USA, which when I was a vendor at Rendo, I always took into account exchange rates when setting my prices and tried to come up with a price that would be reasonable across many currencies.



  • @tastiger Actually, I don't have a problem. I don't think I've spent full price on Poser since version 2, my very first. Every other time has been upgrades And even if it had been, we're talking at least two years or more between versions. I've spent more on operating systems and computers.



  • One thing no one has mentioned and that is Why is there so much of the same content being sold and resold? In the US there are about 2,500,000 new adults entering the work force being able to buy there own things having left High School behind. If even 1/10 of 1 percent (2,500) pick up the FREE Daz what do they need? A couple of Pro Packs Vicky whichever number maybe an outfit or two if they really want a dressed dolly and they are set. And next year another 2.5M adults does the same thing. But happens to the first group of 2,500? Does anyone here really think they all stick with 3D? If they do then this the only hobby to have that type of retention rate. I can think of at least 30 hobbies I have done in the past Skiing, Tennis, Bowling etc. that I don't do now and if I did I would borrow the equipment (such as a bowling ball). In most hobbies if 1 percent stick with for more then 5 years that is considered a success.

    So The experts have a stable of products that all they have to do is re work and they are ready for a new group of customers. Also they are open to using the newest features, look at how many products are now using dforce something the vendors here are telling Poser users it is too hard to use and that only conforming clothing sells.



  • @richard60 said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    So The experts have a stable of products that all they have to do is re work and they are ready for a new group of customers. Also they are open to using the newest features, look at how many products are now using dforce something the vendors here are telling Poser users it is too hard to use and that only conforming clothing sells.

    I have never seen a vendor say dynamic cloth is too hard to use. Customers, yes, vendors no.

    I think vendors would prefer creating dynamic clothing. No rigging, no morphing? HEAVEN for vendors. ROI on an outfit would be greatly improved.

    No, what I see is customers refusing to even TRY dynamic cloth, not the vendors. Again, PE being a perfect example - she has plenty of dynamic cloth, from karanta alone and several others.

    It just slays me that suddenly, DAZ gets credit for FINALLY giving their customers usable dynamic cloth and Poser users suddenly claiming they created the possibility.



  • @robzhena said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    This customer does not view vendors or brokers as problems. Market forces are impersonal. Blue Tree Studio, long a Poser-only vendor, just started releasing DS versions of its products on a brokerage that caters to both platforms. They are following the money, even though Poser users buy their stuff.

    Any vendor that offers both formats of their products is a star in my book. My issue has been with a lot of long-time Poser vendors who have totally given up by "switching" to DS only. I know it's double the effort, but pricing can be adjusted to accommodate 2 formats rather than 1. OR, they can create two separate products, though I don't know how many brokerages like that, unless of course, like Blue Tree Studio, they're "updating" older Poser only products.

    I'm just greatly disappointed in vendors I've been buying from for years who no longer have anything I want to purchase, even though their new products look great, and would most likely be in my Runtime if they were still creating them for Poser too.



  • @glitterati3d said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    @richard60 said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    So The experts have a stable of products that all they have to do is re work and they are ready for a new group of customers. Also they are open to using the newest features, look at how many products are now using dforce something the vendors here are telling Poser users it is too hard to use and that only conforming clothing sells.

    I have never seen a vendor say dynamic cloth is too hard to use. Customers, yes, vendors no.

    I think vendors would prefer creating dynamic clothing. No rigging, no morphing? HEAVEN for vendors. ROI on an outfit would be greatly improved.

    No, what I see is customers refusing to even TRY dynamic cloth, not the vendors. Again, PE being a perfect example - she has plenty of dynamic cloth, from karanta alone and several others.

    It just slays me that suddenly, DAZ gets credit for FINALLY giving their customers usable dynamic cloth and Poser users suddenly claiming they created the possibility.

    Well, that is one reason I did this Poser Render Challenge using the features of Poser. To try and get more people to use the features and to show what kind of Artwork can be done.



  • @miss-b said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    @robzhena said in Why Are Poser Users Not Supporting Poser Merchants?:

    This customer does not view vendors or brokers as problems. Market forces are impersonal. Blue Tree Studio, long a Poser-only vendor, just started releasing DS versions of its products on a brokerage that caters to both platforms. They are following the money, even though Poser users buy their stuff.

    Any vendor that offers both formats of their products is a star in my book. My issue has been with a lot of long-time Poser vendors who have totally given up by "switching" to DS only. I know it's double the effort, but pricing can be adjusted to accommodate 2 formats rather than 1. OR, they can create two separate products, though I don't know how many brokerages like that, unless of course, like Blue Tree Studio, they're "updating" older Poser only products.

    I'm just greatly disappointed in vendors I've been buying from for years who no longer have anything I want to purchase, even though their new products look great, and would most likely be in my Runtime if they were still creating them for Poser too.

    I think with someone like Stonemason, who, if I can recall what he said about why he was abandoning Poser, I think it was a matter of supporting so many render engines. I can't say I fault him for that. When I was doing Dawn's House, the idea of having to learn 3Delight, and Iray scared the crap out of me.