New Figures for Poser any update?



  • PE would be my answer to your question of if a "new figure can provide anything new over what V4WM, etc, already provides". You are right that V4WM takes up 80% of the way, but there's definitely room for improvement. I could babble on about the usual like poly flow, rigging, xtra bones etc, but all these factors added together to add up in their increments to a more advanced figure. For example, my comic figure has certain body controls that I simply cannot do without anymore, and I reach for them automatically when I load up M4... they are so damned useful.

    And indeed, why bother with an entirely new wardrobe when you already have a working model system. This is what kept me going with V4 for so long. I hoped to achieve this with PE, namely keep V4 content going, but as you correctly pointed out I'll be heading for a mega lawsuit from DAZ probably. That in itself is a good enough reason to wanna break free and make a new figure...! The next best thing is converting all that stuff, which is what I'm attempting to make easier. But then there's also another thing: general improvements of models and content.

    One of the BIGGEST annoyances of most hair props and figures in almost all the stores, is that they are entirely stupidly unrealistic. They're either too poofy, too straight, or too extravagant, or too specific in styling to be of any use. 98% of my hair props/figures have been modified to look more real. DAZ vendors are improving gradually. Also with clothing and props, everyday poses and clothing are relatively rare and I struggle to get normal looking jeans and tops for my girls. This is kind of improving now.

    I think the world of CG figure content art is gradually maturing from the default "WOW its 3D" to looking beyond that and actually trying to achieve something artistic with it. Vendors cannot get away with making the same old crap anymore (since its all been done before and Poser allows you to tweak stuff) and need to get really smart with their products: ie: that its actually useful in a production environment, like extra morphs, useful poses, and origins in the right location!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (ie around the hinges of a door and not in the middle).

    But then there's also another thing called "the dollhouse addiction" as i like to call it. Some people just like shopping, regardless of whether or not they really need it. I know folks in the Poserverse that will buy content, download it and even forget about it for several months! Poser is like a dollhouse hobby for some folks, buy a new dress and dress your dolly with it. What about a magical new girl??? But yeah, she does have to actually be magic, and not some incomplete sack of vertices that has the allure of a chewing cow.

    Of course at the end of the day its all about what you really want and need. Do you collect dolls? Are you a porn artist? Do you make forensic renders? Are you an illustrator? Or are you just having fun farting around with little people on your screen? I tailored PE for my own purposes, or at least that was the initial reason. And that is what I am sharing.

    Anyway I'm rambling...

    Back to my po*n!


  • Poser Ambassadors

    I welcome every new figure that comes to Poser, which ironically many do not. I don't want to be stuck with only a few figures, because when you do they inevitable all sort of look the same.

    The biggest issue I see with figures, is that more people bash them than help promote them. Let alone improve them.

    No figure will succeed with the constant bashing. None of them.

    Food for thought.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    JCMs are a necessity in Poser's rigging if you expect to have realistic joint bends. There is no getting around it. Even Genesis 3 has JCMs.

    I realize there are some rigging gurus that have found ways to avoid the use of JCMs but they haven't been done on a realistic figure, so it is irrelevant.

    The issue is how Poser handles JCMs and how complicated it is to create content that also incorporates those JCMs and makes the process as painless as possible for the supporting artist.

    And all of that is rather pointless without other more important features that can't be provided by the figure creator due to being limitations of the software itself. 3 of those features are correct geometry handling (broken welds), the lack of UV swapping, and the lack of sufficient geometry grafting. That's just a sample of what is lacking. All 3 of these features are made available in free software, yet still do not exist in Poser after years of being requested by content artists.

    When a figure artist cannot create a competitive figure because the tools to do so simply do not exist in Poser, it's a losing battle from the beginning. That figure will remain inferior to the 'competition' no matter how perfectly crafted it is.



  • @vilters said in New Figures for Poser any update?:

    • JCM's. => God dammed => Learn how to paint a proper weight and bulge map. => If you "think" you need a JCM? => Think again.

    Non. Njet. Nein. いいえ! Nietes. Neeeeeeen!

    With all respect, maybe I've misunderstood you somehow, but this is the one thing I flat out do not agree with you on. You quite simply, cannot, at all, achieve these bends using Poser's WM alone (see below). Impossible. Reason: you're limited to the plane of rotation, but flesh moves in all directions. Think folding knee, elbow, thigh, and they don't do it uniformly either. flesh compaction occurs only in the last few degrees. Even tendons you cannot simulate with WM. You need JCMs. You can get close using ghost bones or magnets that rotate outwards, I got close, but that opens up a whole new can of worms. My first version of PE was 100% WM, it was a nightmare for scaling! Also, why go through all that hassle when JCMs do it very simply, fast and effectively. Even G3 has craploads of JCMs and DAZ aren't stupid. Even some movie productions have used JCMs, 3D Max and Maya have those options too. I've worked with JCMs for years, with no problem at all. transfers to clothing without a hitch. I really don't see the problem. Sure, if you can do it with WM, good, but if a JCM will only help it look more realistic, then use it!

    Also please be careful with saying something like this. Some people might not be as knowledgeable about this like we are, and they'll take your word for it. Opinions like this could kill a very decent figure. Lali's Bits is 100% JCMs, and its sold thousands of copies, and its still selling. It makes V4 look good. This is the whole point about 3D figure art, to look good, its not some technical minimalist Mcgyver rally that sticks to duct-tape and matchsticks for the sake of traditional cardinal geometry feng shui.

    PE has plenty of JCMs, just like Lali's Bits, and if people are planning to trash it because of JCMs, then warn me now then I'll stop immediately.

    I say this with respect. I know you know your stuff, but this I don't agree with you on.

    alt text


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @erogenesis said in New Figures for Poser any update?:

    The next best thing is converting all that stuff, which is what I'm attempting to make easier. But then there's also another thing: general improvements of models and content.

    There are already a number of ways for the end user to convert existing content to a new figure. Wardrobe wizard, the fitting room, the morph brush, reshaping the clothing externally, etc.None of those methods have helped any of the new figures get off the ground. Because the majority of end users do not want to spend their time converting clothing. They want clothing that already works "as is", or with minimal to no effort.



  • @AmbientShade said in New Figures for Poser any update?:

    @erogenesis said in New Figures for Poser any update?:

    The next best thing is converting all that stuff, which is what I'm attempting to make easier. But then there's also another thing: general improvements of models and content.

    There are already a number of ways for the end user to convert existing content to a new figure. Wardrobe wizard, the fitting room, the morph brush, reshaping the clothing externally, etc.None of those methods have helped any of the new figures get off the ground. Because the majority of end users do not want to spend their time converting clothing. They want clothing that already works "as is", or with minimal to no effort.

    I agree, but I'm not saying that that is THE way, but that is the only way forward regarding one's existing library contents, if one doesn't want to invest in new items.... (or me getting sued to hell and back by DAZ)


  • Poser Ambassadors

    One way that could mitigate the issue of fitting old content to new figures would be if the fitting room used the same geometry and created a morph of that geometry with a new rig, instead of creating a duplicate with different grouping. This would allow anyone to create morphs for existing clothing and distribute those morphs without violating any copyright issues. So a figure artist could create a library of custom morphs for existing clothing to support their new figure, saving a ton of time in creating all new geometry. This of course would require issues already mentioned to be corrected in Poser before it could work.



  • @AmbientShade said in New Figures for Poser any update?:

    One way that could mitigate the issue of fitting old content to new figures would be if the fitting room used the same geometry and created a morph of that geometry with a new rig, instead of creating a duplicate with different grouping. This would allow anyone to create morphs for existing clothing and distribute those morphs without violating any copyright issues. So a figure artist could create a library of custom morphs for existing clothing to support their new figure, saving a ton of time in creating all new geometry. This of course would require issues already mentioned to be corrected in Poser before it could work.

    yep. If I understand you correctly, the only thing standing in the way of that is the segmentation of the mesh into bodyparts. Once Poser goes unimesh like max, C4D and Maya, this can easily be done. I believe Max and other apps already do something like that. you just slap some geometry that is roughly the same as the base mesh and the rig can be taken over, more-or-less. Is that what you mean?


  • Poser Ambassadors

    You are both correct.

    The massive mountain of content that the V4/M4 series have accumulated over the many years is the biggest problem for new figures.

    So, together with a "new" figure, you have to "invent" an easy way to convert that massive content without getting bitten by a lawsuit.
    This existing content also limits the freedom in figure size, vertex groups possibilities, rigging possibilities and so on.

    AmbientShade is right about the many tools Poser has to convert stuff, but from the past we also know that most end users simply wanna "load, pose and render". I also see that AmbientShade is thinking about distributing? DAZ does not even allow shrinkwrapping, so...

    The hobby guy that has a single free hr a day for his hobby, (and that is the majority of home alone end users) wants to end that hr with a render.
    And if he/she has a free hr a week? He/she spends most of that free hr on : "How did I do that last time?"

    Ero?
    You are certainly making the "best possible figure out there", but probably also the most complicated, and that is a little bit of what I am scared off.

    You 2 are posting as I type so... LOL.

    Yeah, you can get new geometry, and then a new rig, and then a new UV_Map, euh?.... What's left of the original?



  • @vilters the whole point of PE was for me to get on with telling stories. in other words, PE does 90% of the work already with her WM and JCMs and morphs. So it should be good. For vendors it should also be ok. I have tried to avoid bulges where I can and the JCMs will be clearly labelled. The mannequins will also help do the work for them.

    There are only two things complicated about PE and that is 1. the way she was made, and 2. her shoulders. Thankfully the way she was made will only be evidenced by my bitter whining an complaining in various forums across the Poserverse. But her shoulders might be the toughest thing to sell. Many people are used to crappy figures that allow you to throw the shoulders up into the air without a thought. problem is that shoulders cannot go that high in reality. Try touching your ear with your shoulder, while keeping your arm down, and not bending your head towards it. Impossible. The only way to get your shoulder that high is to twist the whole region backwards. The scapula actually rotates all the way down (I never knew that!) You can see this when you reach for the sky and see that your armpit is now facing forwards. In PE this basically translates to: shldr Fw, collar twist up (with a few other small rotations). Try selling that to the Poser crowd.

    To solve this I have dials to control that specific movement for the user, but I might even have to make a video about it.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    This might sound like a really odd question.
    But why are you using the fitting room at all?

    I also don't see the return on investment of making a morph set so you can use on other figures as a vendor either. Doing so instantly limits the customer base too people that not only have that content, but actually use it as well. Just because something sold a lot, doesn't mean it will get used a lot today either.

    I don't use the fitting room to refit clothes in most renders.
    Simply because it does all the things that everyone mentioned. To me the fitting room is useful for some things, but using content once or twice for a render has much easier ways of going about it. The fitting room is basically just a new set up room with more options that have come into Poser since the original set up room which is still there.

    All of you know that I have been playing around with Pauline Advanced for a while now.
    And it might surprise you to know that fitting room got very little use in the process.

    Pauline Advanced comes with one of the files you need to do so as well.

    I will leave the rest of that, as food for thought.



  • @shvrdavid Exactly! As long as every new figure is a bash fest, NO ONE is going to release them.

    Why would you? So strangers can savage your model, your reputation and your business?



  • @shvrdavid said in New Figures for Poser any update?:

    This might sound like a really odd question.
    But why are you using the fitting room at all?

    Its dang easy bro! I use it all the time! No kidding. Its not only new, but its a faster version of the setup room, imo. Ever since I gave up the idea of wanting to control the polygroupings, and let Poser decide that, boom it was unstoppable.

    PS: there are some bugs of course... :D



  • of course maybe for vendors this might not be the most ideal solution....



  • @erogenesis That's it exactly, Ero.........JCMs should be used, for specific purposes.

    But, I will say that I see a LOT of really badly done JCMs that create a lot more problems than they solve. I THINK (please note, I said THINK) what I am seeing is DS produced JCMs that don't transfer to Poser well and haven't been double checked after the conversion process. Those JCMs do NOT transfer well, and create many more problems than they solve.

    Here's an example of a JCM gone horribly wrong.

    0_1480030638145_BadJCM.jpg

    What I will say is that JCMs have their use, but they are not supposed to be used to correct pokethrough and minor bend issues. Bulge and weight maps should be able to manage those and JCMs for extreme poses and bends, like you show in your images.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @erogenesis Yes it is easy to use the fitting room, no debating that.

    But there are other ways.



  • @Glitterati3D said in New Figures for Poser any update?:

    @erogenesis That's it exactly, Ero.........JCMs should be used, for specific purposes.
    Here's an example of a JCM gone horribly wrong.

    0_1480030638145_BadJCM.jpg

    Yep that looks like crap, but we could say the same of UV maps done bad, morphs, or even WM for that matter. JCMs is just one of those options that can help make a 3D product look good, but like everything else it is also subject to the producer's abilities / style.

    @shvrdavid said in New Figures for Poser any update?:

    @erogenesis Yes it is easy to use the fitting room, no debating that.

    But there are other ways.

    It might not be ideal for vendors perhaps. For comic work its real useful.



  • Actually, I think that something like 95% of everything that my girls (and dudes) wear in my renders (if they are wearing anything...) has gone through the fitting room, even the stuff I make myself. I add my own morphs later, and the mannequin add the clothing-style morphs for me (like cloth suspended between boobies).

    There might be a better way, perhaps, but this sure as heck works for me.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    It works but it's not redistributable. Anything created in the fitting room is for your use only. Because the geometry that comes out of the fitting room is not the same geometry that went into it. It's a clone of the original, fit to the new form and regrouped.

    My solution (theoretically) is to redesign the fitting room so that it creates fit morphs for the new figure, with a new clothing rig to match that new figure. This way the rig and the morph is redistributable because there is nothing being distributed from the original piece of clothing. Yes, you can do it manually, but that would be much more time consuming and cumbersome, and then what is the point of having the fitting room in the first place? It should be a tool to ease the creating and adaptation of new and existing content. Something that both content artists and end users can take advantage of.

    This would potentially help to lessen the burden of a new figure requiring dozens or hundreds of pieces of add-on clothing at initial release in order for the figure to gain interest, as Tony suggests.

    But again, it is not so much about a new figure not having a department store's worth of clothing to accompany its launch, so much as it is the fact that a new figure does not offer any advantage over any of the existing figures, namely V4/M4, with all their add-ons. When designing a figure you have to also make it easy for content artists to create clothing and other add-ons for it. Complicated rigging will push most of them away. Too many jcms will push most of them away. End users don't care about jcms. It's the content artists that dread them. If they were easier to work with during the creation of content then it would be much better, but that is something that only poser can solve, not the figure artist.

    A new figure has to offer something substantially better than previous offerings. Lack of initial content is not as significant as lack of new functionality. Its that new functionality that is missing from all figures, including those not yet released, because the tools to create that new functionality do not exist in the software.



  • I would rephrase that and say that any new figure should fit into the needs of the people that use them. Of course this could mean it has to do anything their current figures can do, but then better... or is it? Things like V4's eyebrow were clearly flipping useless. I'm changing up the UV layout a little. This lack of genitals is also kind of pert and childish. I'm also taking a step away from this lo-poly trend, I really don't see the point after having used V4 all these years without much of a problem in that regard, in fact she had too little. I'm borrowing ideas from Dawn and G3, ignoring other ideas.

    I think a lot of figures have come into the world without a purpose, or perhaps with an unrelated purpose: to make cash, to be famous, to have a technical achievement?. IMO you're just asking for trouble. Pauline is a good example of this. Launched into the world on a whim, probably purely because it was expected of Poser to do so. Dawn was a very good effort, but even with her I didn't fel like she could slot directly into my workflow, or anyone else's for that matter. Genesis on the other hand did exactly that. It was plug and play. And that's what a figure needs to be: pret-a-porter, ready to go, ready for action.

    Its like the modelling department over at Pixar, they make figures to fit into a pipeline, and they LISTEN to the animators and producers requests, and tailor-make it for that purpose, with everything rigged and attached. I do that too, my Erogirl figure goes through a rigging session every month or so, corrections I list on sorting out with the intent of readying her for comic work. the girl needs to be ready for work! lol

    I see my future customers as the animator department over at Pixar. I am making a figure they can use to do their job. The only difference is that I am also part of that crowd. I think that is the only formula for success here.