Cloth Sim Poser 12



  • Hi,

    I've just been playing with the cloth simulator in the Beta release of Blender 2.8. Wow! If the Poser team are thinking of re-writing the cloth simulator can I suggest they take a look, otherwise we are going to be left behind by D-Force.

    I realise this is more complex so I would leave the old cloth simulator in place for backward compatibility but create a whole new room or just a physics room that can do hair, bullet and cloth. Because I only do stills I'm seriously considering exporting poses frames of the actors as alembic, importing them into Blender and using the cloth sim that way, then apply the sim and export the simulated cloth back into Poser for rendering.



  • @amethystpendant As I've come to understand over the years, there's really nothing Poser can do about the Cloth Simulator. It's not their code. It belongs to Soft 8, which honestly, I don't even know if they still exist. They'd be better off dropping that particular code in favor of something else, I believe, but I don't know the specifics of SM's contract with SOft 8, which apparently is still in force.

    Of course, I'm just speculating here, but that's also why I'm an advocate for people moving over to Bullet Physics, the physics engine. It does pretty much the same things the Cloth Sim does and it does it faster. But that's just my opinion.



  • @amethystpendant, as you're playing with Blender 2.8... what do you think would be an order of magnitude to migrate old toons like Victoria 3 or Victoria 4 or Terai Yuki 2 to Blender 2.8? It would be like 10 hours per toon or more like 100 hours per toon?



  • @eclark1849 I know that's why I said to leave the old cloth sim for backwards comparability and write a new one based on Blender's cloth sim!



  • @fbs7 said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @amethystpendant, as you're playing with Blender 2.8... what do you think would be an order of magnitude to migrate old toons like Victoria 3 or Victoria 4 or Terai Yuki 2 to Blender 2.8? It would be like 10 hours per toon or more like 100 hours per toon?

    Sorry, no idea, I don't know what you mean by migrate them.



  • @fbs7 said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @amethystpendant, as you're playing with Blender 2.8... what do you think would be an order of magnitude to migrate old toons like Victoria 3 or Victoria 4 or Terai Yuki 2 to Blender 2.8? It would be like 10 hours per toon or more like 100 hours per toon?

    The biggest problem with migrating figures to Blender from Poser is a way to control the figures. Poser is primarily done with controls, but, and I'm no expert, but from what I've seen, Blender is more like a marrionette.



  • @eclark1849 said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @fbs7 said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @amethystpendant, as you're playing with Blender 2.8... what do you think would be an order of magnitude to migrate old toons like Victoria 3 or Victoria 4 or Terai Yuki 2 to Blender 2.8? It would be like 10 hours per toon or more like 100 hours per toon?

    The biggest problem with migrating figures to Blender from Poser is a way to control the figures. Poser is primarily done with controls, but, and I'm no expert, but from what I've seen, Blender is more like a marrionette.

    That's why I said I could pose them in poser, export via alembic, import the frames into blender and then cloth sim. I don't want to have to do that, I want a decent cloth simulator in Poser, not Bullet as that collides against convex hulls, the new cloth simulator in Blender does proper collisions, not repulsion as it used to do, detects collisions mid frames and does it multi-threaded!



  • @amethystpendant said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @eclark1849 said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @fbs7 said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @amethystpendant, as you're playing with Blender 2.8... what do you think would be an order of magnitude to migrate old toons like Victoria 3 or Victoria 4 or Terai Yuki 2 to Blender 2.8? It would be like 10 hours per toon or more like 100 hours per toon?

    The biggest problem with migrating figures to Blender from Poser is a way to control the figures. Poser is primarily done with controls, but, and I'm no expert, but from what I've seen, Blender is more like a marrionette.

    That's why I said I could pose them in poser, export via alembic, import the frames into blender and then cloth sim. I don't want to have to do that, I want a decent cloth simulator in Poser, not Bullet as that collides against convex hulls, the new cloth simulator in Blender does proper collisions, not repulsion as it used to do, detects collisions mid frames and does it multi-threaded!

    Granted Bullet does use conves hulls, but you can control how far way they extend. In that sense, it's not unlike the Cloth sim



  • Great to hear that Blender has an improved cloth simulator.
    Does it support direct intervention by the user like VWD and MD do?
    For the MDBridge to Poser I found avatars(collision objects) in mesh (.obj) format are the best option for the communication. I would have used Alembic if PoserPython would have supported that. Communicating via rigged figures (Collada) gives just too many differences between the representation in Poser and the representation in the simulator.
    Work is underway to extend the Poser bridgehead to support more (basically any) figures.
    If anyone savvy in Blender programming wants to take a shot on making a Blender bridgehead for the simlator side as an alternative to MD by all means let me know.



  • @amethystpendant said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @fbs7 said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @amethystpendant, as you're playing with Blender 2.8... what do you think would be an order of magnitude to migrate old toons like Victoria 3 or Victoria 4 or Terai Yuki 2 to Blender 2.8? It would be like 10 hours per toon or more like 100 hours per toon?

    Sorry, no idea, I don't know what you mean by migrate them.

    That would be exporting the mesh in Poser, importing in Blender, regrouping in Blender, rebuilding the skeleton in Blender, then exporting the morphs from Poser, importing the morphs in Blender, then redoing any dynamic hair, resetting textures, then re-creating the deformers. Not sure what do about conforming clothes, I reckon clothes would have to become dynamic or merged with the character, I guess...



  • @eclark1849 said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @fbs7 said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @amethystpendant, as you're playing with Blender 2.8... what do you think would be an order of magnitude to migrate old toons like Victoria 3 or Victoria 4 or Terai Yuki 2 to Blender 2.8? It would be like 10 hours per toon or more like 100 hours per toon?

    The biggest problem with migrating figures to Blender from Poser is a way to control the figures. Poser is primarily done with controls, but, and I'm no expert, but from what I've seen, Blender is more like a marrionette.

    Right, and I still can't animate anything in Blender other than moving it from point A to point B, and maybe rotating it.



  • @fbs7 said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @amethystpendant said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @fbs7 said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @amethystpendant, as you're playing with Blender 2.8... what do you think would be an order of magnitude to migrate old toons like Victoria 3 or Victoria 4 or Terai Yuki 2 to Blender 2.8? It would be like 10 hours per toon or more like 100 hours per toon?

    Sorry, no idea, I don't know what you mean by migrate them.

    That would be exporting the mesh in Poser, importing in Blender, regrouping in Blender, rebuilding the skeleton in Blender, then exporting the morphs from Poser, importing the morphs in Blender, then redoing any dynamic hair, resetting textures, then re-creating the deformers. Not sure what do about conforming clothes, I reckon clothes would have to become dynamic or merged with the character, I guess...

    Again, I ONLY HAVE A FLEETING ACQUAINTAINCE with Blender animation, but usually, from what I've seen, clothing in Blender is a part of the figure. I'll be on the lookout for some Blender animation videos if you like.



  • @amethystpendant
    Do you have a description of the functionality?
    Does it support direct user intervention while simulating? (e.g. by pulling the fabric around)



  • @fverbaas said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @amethystpendant
    Do you have a description of the functionality?
    Does it support direct user intervention while simulating? (e.g. by pulling the fabric around)

    In blender (2.79 and in the beta 2.8) you can bake the simulation then edit individual frames, you can also have another mesh that is treated as the rest state for each frame. check out https://twitter.com/lucarood/status/1044979412683436032?lang=en for a mind blowing animation of a bow being pulled apart, something you can't do in poser's cloth simulator without everything blowing up!

    I'm not saying this is exactly what we need, but it goes a long way to solving some of the major problems we have in the Poser Cloth Room.

    I just don't use conforming clothing so no idea how that would work, and as for effectively rigging V4 etc, no idea, I have a great app for posing characters, Poser, to me Blender is first and foremost a modelling app, though others use it for far more.



  • Another big drawback of Blender's (at least in my opinion), is it's in ability to save and transfer poses from one figure to another. That's definitely something I'd like to see Blender start on.



  • @amethystpendant
    Impressive demo indeed. there is a pretty large mount of self-ollision being solved there. I assume the cloth is quite high-polycount and the computation very heavy.



  • @amethystpendant said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    a mind blowing animation of a bow being pulled apart, something you can't do in poser's cloth simulator without everything blowing up!

    :o I want that!!

    I note that 2.8 isn't released yet - but my cloth simulation workflow nearly always involves post-processing of the results, so simulating in another program need not be a barrier. Watching with interest.


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    @amethystpendant

    Wow - that looks great!



  • @f_verbaas said in Cloth Sim Poser 12:

    @amethystpendant
    Impressive demo indeed. there is a pretty large mount of self-ollision being solved there. I assume the cloth is quite high-polycount and the computation very heavy.

    not that high poly, but the self collision system has been totally re-written and is multithreaded so able to handle the load better!