New La Femme Base Figure for Poser 11 Now Available



  • @qazart said in New La Femme Base Figure for Poser 11 Now Available:

    Let me explain the problem with the control chips.

    0_1560950106799_q comparison.jpg

    On the left we have the original face. Note the veritical philtrum and the natural shape of the top lip.
    On the right we have the effect of turning one dial. Upper lip control dial up 16.
    Notice what happens. It doesn't move lip up down. It rotates the lip vertically.
    It stretches the lip and buries the philtrum inside the face. It has even reached the bottom part of the nose.
    The geometry is distorted.
    This, I believe is because the underlying mesh density is too low and the area of influence of the chips too high.
    The control chips are a nice idea, but they don't work.
    You can get subtle expression effects with tiny movements of the dials, but that is it.

    If you want decent expression morphs, they need to be done in a separate program.

    I'd use the translation of the lip chip instead of the rotation.
    For a lot of things, I'm prefering to use translations and not rotations, because of that exact reason.
    I've used a few scales too, like when you big-laugh, your lips stretch and therefore look thinner - I used scales on the chips for that.

    Facial expression rigging is the way every game animator goes, for a reason. Morphs are barely used anymore for such things. It's like expecting us to drop the rotations for poses and use dials instead.



  • @deecey

    No, I'm not talking about face resolution for morphing, although that is an interesting other subject.
    I am currently rendering at sub div 2. It doesn't help.
    0_1560959565973_test_06192019_.jpg

    The face chips are moving the vertices of the base resolution head. You can see that the deformation is running along the lines of the base res vertices making the movement more exaggerated than I think would occur with more polys to play with. Rendering at higher sub divs doesn't make up for that.
    In this particular situation, matters are made worse because the vertices are moving in the wrong direction.



  • @qazart said in New La Femme Base Figure for Poser 11 Now Available:

    The face chips are moving the vertices of the base resolution head. You can see that the deformation is running along the lines of the base res vertices making the movement more exaggerated than I think would occur with more polys to play with.

    Expected behavior. When a mesh is subdivided, the "extra" vertices are virtual, not really there.

    In this particular situation, matters are made worse because the vertices are moving in the wrong direction.

    Are you ROTATING the chip, or TRANSLATING it? If you press the ESC key while dragging the chip, it will translate it. Or, you can use the Yellow dials (Twist, Side-Side, Up-Down) for rotation, and the ORANGE dials (Right-Left, Lower-Raise, In-Out) for translation.

    Also did you see my question about whether or not you used "Match Centers to Morph" on your character face? Since you have moved the mouth position, part of the issue might also be that the centers of the face chips are still referencing the positions used in the default base shape. Select your character morph (in the BODY actor) and choose "Match Centers to Morph" from the menu at the right side of the morph dial in the parameters palette.



  • @afrodite-ohki
    I hope you don't mind me using your picture to make the point,

    0_1560960470404_1560859595995-9f52b657-d5bc-4eb0-a0ce-a74c7a043d5f-image.jpg

    The top arrow shows that the control chip to move the eyebrow down has deformed the skull.
    Middle arrow shows heavy groove created under eye by the cheek chip, and
    the lower arrow shows the indentation above the top lip by using the mouth face chips that i have highlighted above.



  • This shows the difference between TRANSLATING and ROTATING the center of the upper lip. The difference is subtle, but it will alleviate the issue you are having with the deformed philtrum.

    0_1560961305501_difference.png



  • @deecey

    Yes, I agree. I wasn't moving the chips. For more control, I was using the translate dials. But they are not translate dials, they are rotate dials despite being at the top of the transform palette.

    So, a quick test reveals the following. In most instances, don't drag the control chips. That just rotates the mesh. Use Escape drag.
    For some reason this doesn't apply to the eyelids. Escape drag alters the lash length. To translate the eye lid up down, you just drag up down.
    Could do with a video tutorial



  • Also, the match centers to morphs doesn't really work too well on the head, although it works fine on the body.
    I did match centers to morphs. That wasn't the issue.



  • @qazart
    Another clarification for you

    0_1560965998536_2019-06-19_13-38-03.png


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Dee is correct here. The polygon count is fine. More or less polygons does not matter.
    What you do with the chips matters.
    If you select them with the mouse and start pulling them, you can get strange results. Use the dials to get the chips do what you want them to do.



  • @vilters
    If you say that the poly count is OK, then I want to know how you morph . Everyone keeps saying this, by I don't see anyone producing anything I would be impressed with. I know that there are plenty of good results in Genesis, so how did they do that ? Did they morph in higher sub div levels ?

    "If you select them with the mouse and start pulling them, you can get strange results. Use the dials to get the chips do what you want them to do."
    And you have fallen into the same trap as everyone else.
    They have set up the face chips so that if you pull the chips, it doesn't translate the geometry, it twists the geometry.
    There are two sets of dials. The top set are the one you do not use.

    Even so, I've been unable to come up with anything I would find acceptable.



  • @qazart said in New La Femme Base Figure for Poser 11 Now Available:

    I know that there are plenty of good results in Genesis, so how did they do that ? Did they morph in higher sub div levels ?

    Not always. From what I see, the majority of a morph is done at base resolution, but sometimes vendors add additional high resolution details (such as smiles and creases, etc) .

    There are only two ways at present to make high resolution morphs with Poser. Either with the Morph tool, or with ZBrush. High resolution morphs cannot be imported from other software yet because the "Import Morph" command expects base resolution.



  • @qazart said in New La Femme Base Figure for Poser 11 Now Available:

    They have set up the face chips so that if you pull the chips, it doesn't translate the geometry, it twists the geometry.

    Every body part, including face and body chips, can transform a body part or a chip in one of three ways ....
    ... ROTATIONS. Rotations in every body part are indicated by YELLOW parameter dial labels.
    -- TRANSLATIONS. Translations in every body part are indicated by ORANGE parameter dial labels.
    -- SCALES. Scales in every body part are indicated by GREEN parameter dial labels.

    This is across the board. It's the way figures have always worked. So the face chips work no differently than any other bone. And since, when posing, poses are mainly done with ROTATION, that is why the face chips are also the way they are. If you want to TRANSLATE, just use the orange dials instead of the yellow ones, which do rotation.

    Poser 10 and earlier did not support "smooth translation", which is new to Poser 11. You can actually translate body parts with the ESC key too. Press the ESC key while you drag the chest upward, and her chest will translate smoothly and get enlongated or shortened. Try it with a thigh, or the shin. Same thing.



  • @deecey

    I accept what you say, although its all news to me. However its counter intuitive, because if you pull on something, you expect it to be dragged not twist.
    Which is why nearly all the pictures in this thread will show the chips not used properly.

    Now its all down to convention. Do you drive on the right or the left.
    As I say, could do with a tutorial



  • @deecey Ah. Can zbrush do that because of the bridge? Is that something that will change in poser? (please please please) I mean, you can export the mesh subd'd. Why should we not be able to re-import that mesh (morphed) at the same subd?



  • @qazart
    Chuck (nerd3D) did a 50 minute webinar on LaFemme that covers a lot of this stuff

    https://www.renderosity.com/mod/tutorial_premium/?page=info&tutorial=139



  • @thoennes
    Yes GoZ (Figure > Export Figure Mesh to GoZ). Then GoZ it back to Poser.

    As for whether or not that will change to allow HR mesh import for morphs, have no idea. Not on the dev team any more 8-)



  • @deecey Question... Can someone add a sticky to this thread? The references to things like BH's and Nerd's tutorials are super valuable. A list of those up front would be ever so helpful.

    A dream would also be a nice sticky with lore things like the yellow vs orange dials. Tidbits the dev team, vendors, rock stars might let drop, during all their spare time.



  • To add ...

    Set the subdivision level in Poser.
    Figure > Export Figure Mesh to GoZ
    Sculpt in ZBrush at that subdivision level
    GoZ back to Poser



  • @deecey is anyone???? Seriously. The silence from the devs is deafening.



  • @qazart Poser users have been used, for a long time, to not translate body parts - that used to yield bad results and distorted or broken meshes until not long ago.

    La Femme has smooth translations, some other new figures do as well. With that, you can make longer arms etc. Still, we associate posing = rotation of body parts.

    We'll still have to get used to rotating, translating and scaling things now, because they all work well (as in, they don't break geometry). As we do, we'll understand what works better for each part.

    It's no use comparing to what people are doing with Genesis - it's been around for a few years now. La Femme is only some months old. Vendors don't come out of the box understanding everything of a new figure. My first rig for La Femme took me days. My latest one took a couple of hours, and the figure spanned more body parts.