How to fix welded groups on figure



  • Ok, so I have a human model I purchased online that was imported into Poser Pro 11 from an OBJ format. I rigged the model with a Poser basic skeleton and copied the joint zones from the Don Casual figure. Next, I grouped the various figure body parts (that came with the Poser basic skeleton), along with grouping the clothing and equipment (that came with the purchased model).

    After going back and forth several times between the Pose Room to test the movement of body parts and the Setup Room to re-weld groups where polygons were initially missed, I'm seeing what appear to be tears in the welding between the groups. Certain areas on the figure appear blank that do not show up with any polygons in the setup room, and appear hollowed out in the same areas of the figure in the Pose Room. I attempted to re-weld the groups, but there are no polygons to select to fix it through this method.

    Can anyone let me know if this can be repaired and how to go about doing it?

    Thanks!


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @shepdaddy
    hello, and welcome.

    Several things here so let us start with the easy ones;

    • The bones and the vertex groups have to have the same name
    • You can only go in the setup room ONCE, and not in-out, in-out, in-out. (That messes things up more and more)
    • The one time you go in the setup room you transfer the bones, ( with he correct names in the figure vertex groups and bones) and then you adapt the joints in the joint editor.

    The "study" for the correct vertex groups and bone names has to be done before you go in the setup room.

    Lastly, and this is the "ugly part", Poser will split the obj file into individual vertex groups when saving.
    (But will reweld them at next import if everything went to plan.)

    Content creators don't work this way.

    • They import the obj file in a 3D modeling app, study the bone names of the donor figure (Don Casual in your case) and do the vertex group creation in the 3D app of their choice (I use Blender for this purpose)

    • Then they go to Poser, load the obj file, go to the setup room to transfer the bones, come back to the pose room and then adjust the bones and joints and rigging using the Joint editor.

    • When all is said and done and you are satisfied with your rigging, save the cr2 with a NEW name to library => If you read the above you know that Poser split the obj file when you saved. => Delete the obj file Poser just saved for you.

    • To cure/repair this : Open the cr2 in a cr2editor and replace the 2 paths in the cr2 to your properly vertex grouped and welded obj file that you created in your 3D modeler. => the cr2 will now load your own properly welded and vertex grouped obj file.

    See all my YouTube video's, some cover this part. (But, I should make one for this purpose as the question often pops up.)
    It is Video4 in the series that is most helpful here.

    Best regards, Tony



  • Any time a group is modified, every group you touched has to be welded.

    As you found out, Poser isn't always the best at that.
    I do my grouping in Blender.



  • @vilters said in How to fix welded groups on figure:

    You can only go in the setup room ONCE, and not in-out, in-out, in-out. (That messes things up more and more)
    The one time you go in the setup room you transfer the bones, ( with he correct names in the figure vertex groups and bones) and then you adapt the joints in the joint editor.

    I probably shouldn't contradict this, because he is right... sorta, but you can go back and forth to the Setup Room, although, I don't recommend it. You'll probably end up with a bigger mess than you started out with and to clean things up will require the much hated Group editor, or Grouping tool.



  • But if he already has a mesh object - couldn't he just use the Fitting Room instead, import a rig that befits his object, and be done with it?

    Prerequisite would be to have the polygons grouped according to the bone names, but that applies to the Setup Room as well.
    So work must be done beforehand, in either case!

    But I think using the Fitting Room to spawn a new figure is still better than using the Setup Room with all it's frills and flaws!

    The Setup Room should ONLY be used if you want to create a NEW RIG - else better leave it alone...

    K

    P.S.:
    And in any case, always use the Joint Editor to set the joint zones AFTER you created the new figure (by whatever method).


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @eclark1849
    Hi Earl,
    some years ago I had a long and very constructive conversation with the now ex-Poser team members about the setup room, (back in the days that I invented the fitting room, Steve Cooper wrote the specs and the team coded it) and we all agreed that multiple visits to the setup room only made things worse.

    So the conclusion was: Study the donor figure for vertex groups and bone names, and then "duplicate those" in the receiving figure and then go to the setup room once only. If you missed some part? Don't go right into the setup room again, but simply start over completely.

    @karina
    Basically, the setup room and the fitting room use the same code.
    The fitting room is an "enhanced version" of the setup room, so you are correct and one could use the fitting room for the same purpose.

    In either case, you are correct. The content creator has to do the study part first. (bone and vertex group names.)

    Unfortunately it does not end here.

    Both rooms, setup and fitting rooms, also use the same "autogroup" function, and because some chest are very small, and the lower hip area gets very small, both rooms try to weld rCollar and lCollar, and try to weld rThigh and lThigh together resulting in weld cracks.

    In either case, manual grouping or autogrouping, Poser will split the obj file back into individual vertex groups when saving out to library, hereby creating double vertex at all welds.
    That is why you always need an external and properly welded and vertex grouped obj file.
    Delete the poser saved obj file and replace both paths in the cr2 to point to the good obj.
    (Or delete the poser saved obj file, and rename the good obj file to the name Poser saved for you => That way you do not have the change the paths in the cr2.)

    => Video 4 in the series.

    Best regards all, and have a good W-End



  • @vilters Read what I wrote, Tony. I only said you can go back into the Setup room, not that you should. And I even agreed with you. That said, I have gone into the Setup room twice or more, and I did end up using the hated Grouping tool.



  • @vilters

    Actually you CAN import an OBJ file and do some regrouping with the grouping tool and then export it back out. As long as it is still an OBJ (ie: prop) and has not yet been converted to a figure.

    It is only after you add the skeleton and rig and convert to a posable figure that it becomes split apart, either when exporting the OBJ out or when saving to the library.



  • To verify, try this:

    1. Import an OBJ file that is pre-grouped.
    2. Open the grouping tool and make a simple change to the grouping.
    3. Don't do anything else. Just choose File > Export > WaveFront OBJ
    4. For export options, only check "Include existing groups in polygon groups"

    Now here's the interesting bit. Not only is the OBJ file exported fully welded, WITH the new group in there, but you also don't have the asymmetry issues that occur after an OBJ is converted to a CR2/rigged figure.

    So that more or less proves that there is something that happens during the rigging process/CR2 creation that splits the groups into individual body parts, and also causes asymmetry in the OBJ file. The verts on the right side of the figure (our left, figure's right) get shifted some. It has improved somewhat in one of the SR's for Poser 11, but is still not perfectly symmetrical after the CR2 creation.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @deecey
    Correct Dee.
    For grouped obj files that have no rigging, it all works as intended.
    The split/unweld/double vertex issue only surfaces when saving rigged obj files.
    But that is what the OP wants. So he has to take the escape route and do some preparing and fixing.



  • First off, thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I'm a very new user to Poser and learning how to navigate the various intricities of the program and 3D modeling.

    Dee, very interesting find. If I understood correctly, sounds like I could successfully rig my model by importing the OBJ, setup all the groups in the Pose Room, export the grouped model as an OBJ, import the OBJ with the saved groupIngs, and THEN go into the Setup Room to convert to a figure with bones. Not sure this is the best approach though, but worth a try. I'm looking instead at using Blender for grouping and staying away from Posers Grouping Tool.



  • @shepdaddy

    I don't find Poser's grouping tool to be very friendly. It's much easier to group in a modeler. But you wouldn't group in the Setup room, you'd probably group in the Pose room instead.

    There will be one additional step after you convert to a figure. After you save the CR2 to the Poser library, it will save an ungrouped OBJ in the character folder. You will either need to replace that OBJ with your good pre-grouped and welded one, or edit the path to the OBJ file to point to your good geometry file.

    I prefer to locate the geometry files in the Geometries folder, like we did in the old days. That way it's tucked away in a safe place where it can't get overwritten