Pretty pictures are nice but unusable for animations



  • Superfly makes nice pictures. But unless you have a bank of supercomputers at your disposal it is useless for animations. Many people, myself included, never render out an animation as it takes a month of Sundays to do so. We use the hardware render engine for our animations. So, for those of us who would like to actually make animations instead of still photos, is there any plans to get a DX11 or 12 render engine in the future? Think Iclone7.

    If Poser is to survive it needs to be able to native load the Genesis figures so they actually can be fully animated (constraints) and the render engine made real time with the full DX lineup of features. DAZ Studio will eat it alive if it is just left to do stills.



  • @primeuser

    Hi there

    I don't think there will be DX11 or 12 renderer as this will leave OSX oweners in strange situation as DX11 or 12 is not supported by OSX, due this I would be very surprised if there will be any DX renderer

    Did you tried to do animation on similar/same HW in IRAY, I would suspect you will end in similar situation like in Poser where animations can take lots of time and lots of computing power

    Regarding speeds, I can only say in my case, same scene takes around the same time to render like in IRAY or in SuperFly, there are some differences but this is down to how Poser and how DS translate materials and due this I wouldn't compare two renderers at all

    If you are thinking go route of animations then I still would go route of the other SW like is C4D or others,I work in C4D and Unreal plus Unity on few animations, those are more commercial projects

    I would love to have DX renderer in Poser, but this I don't think will ever happen just due the above my points of OSX owners

    Hope this helps

    Thanks, Jura



  • I agree. Rendered a 110 frame animation at 1080p this week. Firefly, no ID light or SSS, but two reflective surfaces. Left it running all night and it only finished 8 hours later on my 16 core Xeons. Superfly is UTTERLY unusable at any quality high enough to be worthwhile (40 or above).



  • Here is a quote from an article about Avatar.

    The visual effects department at Weta comprises of some major processing power consisting of 34 racks, each with four chassis of 32 machines a piece. The combination of those machines comprises a total of 40,000 processors along with 104 terabytes of memory using 10 GB networking adapters. And if you are wondering what type of computers Weta Digital uses, during an upgrade back in the summer of 2008 their system was rebuilt with over 4,000 HP BL2x220c blade computers.

    To tackle the task of helping create Avatar, it took the Weta Digital super computers processing up to 1.4 million tasks per day to render the movie, which consisted of processing 8 gigabytes of data per second running 24 hours for over a month. Often each of Avatar’s frames took several hours to render. And when you consider that is just one frame out of 24 for every second of film, you can imagine why the major processing power at Weta Digital was needed.

    So it took 40,000 pooled cpu's just over a month to render it out. Do the math on that, that's about a 48 cpu hour average per frame.
    That computer hold's numerous supercomputer records and is ranked in the top 200 fastest in the world.

    Seems even money cant by fast render times, or they would already have it.
    If your getting one usable frame a day out of any render engine, your doing just as good as they did rendering Avatar if you compare core count from the supercomputer to any of ours...

    Cycles has been shown to be comparable to Arnold, Mental ray, etc in speed, but only if all the shaders used are set up from a reverse path tracer standpoint. To make it as fast as possible the shaders have to terminate themselves, and not rely on the max bounce setting to before termination. I read somewhere that some of the frames in Avatar were 35 bounces, and if you do it on a reverse path tracer, your going to have to limit bounces on shaders that don't need all 35 or they will process until the end of the chain even thou nothing changes from doing so.

    For instance, if you have max trans bounces set at 60, and it only has to go thru 4 layers to achieve a zdepth that is past the hair, it should terminate and use that value(s) in the chain. If there isn't a zdepth check to see if it made it past the layers of hair, it keeps doing the rest of the bounces in the chain even thou it wont do anything for the render other than waste time looking further down the line for transmission bounces that may not be there.

    It will be nice once we have render engines and hardware that can pump out renders as fast as we would like them too, maybe our grandkids will have access to stuff like that, because as it stands now we don't or companies like Weta Digital would already have them.

    Even if you have the hardware, you have to understand the render engine your using as well.
    A reverse path tracer adds to the complexity just in the shaders alone, if you want it to render as fast as possible.



  • This shows how to set some of that up in Cycles, and it works in Superfly as well.

    Adaptive Ray Bounces In Cycles

    The reflection limit, ends the reflection at two in the example given, no matter what the global setting is at above that.
    Adding these limits to every shader that needs them in the scene will usually make a dramatic difference in render time.



  • @primeuser said in Pretty pictures are nice but unusable for animations:

    If Poser is to survive it needs to be able to native load the Genesis figures so they actually can be fully animated (constraints) and the render engine made real time with the full DX lineup of features. DAZ Studio will eat it alive if it is just left to do stills.

    No, no it does NOT. Genesis can stay in DAZ Studio, unless DAZ3D makes a Poser-native version themselves.



  • @shvrdavid Yes shvr really excellent points Re Avatar. Although in fairness they were generating scenes with tens or hundreds of millions of polygons, I doubt if I hit a million. But still, your point is well made, and a good reminder that it is our expectations that are sometimes in error, not the technology.
    I notice the growth in online render farm services offering thousands of CPUs at student-affordable prices. Seeing the renders that they use to preview their services, which are far from exceptional, it's clear that across the board, be it Maya, 3DS Max, Blender, or whatever, and with all the major render engines, it still takes a loooong time to produce quality renders.



  • @modus0 said in Pretty pictures are nice but unusable for animations:

    No, no it does NOT. Genesis can stay in DAZ Studio, unless DAZ3D makes a Poser-native version themselves.

    I'm sorry but until there is a large market of creators producing high quality clothing and textures for Genesis figures, primeuser was absolutely correct. YOU may be perfectly happy to use the inferior SM/CP figures or create your own content, but the massive majority are using DAZ.



  • @modus0 said in Pretty pictures are nice but unusable for animations:

    @primeuser said in Pretty pictures are nice but unusable for animations:

    If Poser is to survive it needs to be able to native load the Genesis figures so they actually can be fully animated (constraints) and the render engine made real time with the full DX lineup of features. DAZ Studio will eat it alive if it is just left to do stills.

    No, no it does NOT. Genesis can stay in DAZ Studio, unless DAZ3D makes a Poser-native version themselves.

    AMEN!



  • Before we go completely off the deep end here about Genesis in Poser, stop and think about it for a min.
    Daz wrote DSON, and for the most part it worked, then came Genesis 3 and parts of it did not work.
    Will took it upon himself to write a script to get Genesis 3 to work in Poser.

    Is that not enough that someone did what people asked?
    I have a lot of 3D programs, and a most of things are not point and click to get into other programs.

    I personally don't use DSON or the script that much, well, because they slow Poser down. That is to be expected and there is a really good way around that. Open Studio, load Genesis 3, and low and behold it works just fine in Studio.

    Obviously that is my personal preference, too use program specific content in the program it was designed for.
    Genesis is not just a figure, it is a system. A program specifically designed to wrap around and support a base figure(s) that are unique to the program.

    Sure, obviously there are people that want Genesis to work native in Poser. But to me it is far easier to just open Studio and use it in the program it was designed to work in.

    Nothing I build in Houdini works in Poser or Studio, neither program supports that type of content in its native form. Sure, Houdini has the Houdini Engine to get stuff into a few other programs, but it also costs 5k to get FX up and running, not including the apps you want to get it into or a system that can even run it effectively. Spending 20k+ for programs, hardware, etc, for a hobby isn't something most people can afford, or would even consider if they could.

    Same goes for a lot of the other programs I use, the stuff needs a lot of work to be used in another program.
    Sure you can script it, etc. Use FBX etc to get it from one to the other, but in the end, point and click generally isn't there.
    That's why I use all the programs I use, because there isn't one that can do all of it.

    FBX was originally designed so you could move content from one program to another with point and click.
    Now there are over a hundred versions of it out there, and a lot of it is so far from the original FBX that it doesn't transfer well to anything. The reason is very simple as well. One program supports something another one does not.

    If every program did basically the same thing, all of us would pick one of those.
    3d has never had the cross compatibility many want, and there is a good reason for that.
    Every company has a different mindset on how it should work, etc.
    That's where most of the cool stuff we use came from, doing it differently in the first place.
    If Poser and Studio were sprite based because everyone stuck to sprites, well, you get the picture.

    I would rather have programs with advanced unique features than be stuck with one system that is limited by design.
    We could just spend thousands of dollars on programs that all do the same thing. That would be pointless, and everyone here knows that.

    The advantages programs have over another, it what sells them in the first place. Take that away and use a universal system, and the only choice left is a personal preference. Adding a system from a free program to a paid version, isn't going to raise sales that much either. The other one is free.

    Poser content in Studio was brought up here as well. And I can understand why Studio doesn't support it past about P7. If it did, it would cut into the content sales, which is what pays the bills. They are probably not going to do that, and to date they have not.

    The Poser/Studio thing has been beat to death as far as Content crossing goes, and neither side has added it.
    The way two different people write code, is always going to be different, and that's a good thing not a bad one.
    I understand why all the programs are not the same, it limits creativity, and adds to code support on the Dev's end.

    In the Genesis in Poser case, there is little chance of any financial return.
    Which is exactly why P7 - P11 content, figures, etc don't work in Studio.

    Food for thought....



  • I agree shvr, I am happy that DAZ and now someone else have created scripts that enable us to use Genesis content in Poser. For me, it's not the figures (the expression ranges of Genesis characters are VASTLY inferior) - but the costumes, which is one area that continues to improve far beyond the actual figures. I also see that the quality of textures continues to rise. I am very surprised and disappointed that Phil C (was it?) ceased updating his texture converter tool. Now more than ever, I would happily have paid for Genesis 3 textures and applied them to V4/M4 etc.

    As for your comments about interoperability, I have to say that there ARE universal formats such as OBJ etc, and whilst this may not transport all rigging information, it is certainly a decent starting point. The need to move 3D data between programs is ESSENTIAL and simply saying "If you don't like it, learn the program that can handle that dataset" simply does not cut it for me. Indeed Okino's two conversion programs Polytrans and Nugraf, only exist because this is such a vital requirement. ANY publisher who produces a program that does not operate with the major formats in its market is both alienating customers, and diminishing its own market potential.

    I place the blame for this incompatibility squarely at the feel of DAZ who to be charitable were simply arrogantly heedless about the needs of their content's Poser users, and to be less charitable, tried to manipulate the users in a grab to squeeze SM out of the market that they created then neglected.

    I disagree with you completely about there being no reward in compatibility. For DAZ it opens up the market to dedicated Poser users, whilst for SM, it manages to quell the gradual leeching of its user base to their FREE rival. SM has all the reason in the world to work on compatibility. With respect, I suspect you're thinking too much like a pro user, and not enough like the average user.



  • Isn't there a lot more that can be squeezed out of OpenGL?

    I may be mis-remembering, but didn't Truespace get 'usable quality' images out of it's OpenGL viewport?



  • @matb said in Pretty pictures are nice but unusable for animations:

    I agree shvr, I am happy that DAZ and now someone else have created scripts that enable us to use Genesis content in Poser. For me, it's not the figures (the expression ranges of Genesis characters are VASTLY inferior) - but the costumes, which is one area that continues to improve far beyond the actual figures. I also see that the quality of textures continues to rise. I am very surprised and disappointed that Phil C (was it?) ceased updating his texture converter tool. Now more than ever, I would happily have paid for Genesis 3 textures and applied them to V4/M4 etc.

    As for your comments about interoperability, I have to say that there ARE universal formats such as OBJ etc, and whilst this may not transport all rigging information, it is certainly a decent starting point. The need to move 3D data between programs is ESSENTIAL and simply saying "If you don't like it, learn the program that can handle that dataset" simply does not cut it for me. Indeed Okino's two conversion programs Polytrans and Nugraf, only exist because this is such a vital requirement. ANY publisher who produces a program that does not operate with the major formats in its market is both alienating customers, and diminishing its own market potential.

    I place the blame for this incompatibility squarely at the feel of DAZ who to be charitable were simply arrogantly heedless about the needs of their content's Poser users, and to be less charitable, tried to manipulate the users in a grab to squeeze SM out of the market that they created then neglected.

    I disagree with you completely about there being no reward in compatibility. For DAZ it opens up the market to dedicated Poser users, whilst for SM, it manages to quell the gradual leeching of its user base to their FREE rival. SM has all the reason in the world to work on compatibility. With respect, I suspect you're thinking too much like a pro user, and not enough like the average user.

    I don't think it was Phil that made the texture converter, and I believe Rendo owns that now.
    (Dave comes to mind, but I could be wrong about that)

    Your looking at interchangeability a bit differently. Yes OBJ is a standard, just like may others. But they do little more than provide a starting point as you pointed out. There are versions of OBJ that wont import properly into Poser or Studio as well. That was the point I made about FBX, and many other open source standards suffer from the same issue.

    The ability to move fully rigged figures from one app to another is usually only present in high end programs, and is also limited to just a few. You get what you pay for, and 5k for Poser Pro isn't what I want.

    Companies that do a lot of 3D, more often than not, write their own plugins to move rigged figures around anyway. Poser has a few ways of doing so with the Fusion stuff, too make it a bit easier to move Poser stuff to a high end program. Full interchangeability is point and click, not start with an obj and go from there. Very few programs have that, and there is a good reason why they don't. It takes a lot of people to keep up with development, and not every company is going to invest millions into something that may not pan out. So that add APIs to the program so someone else can write it.

    As far as how I look at it, I look at it the same way many other companies that passed on Genesis did.
    Don't get me wrong, Genesis is a neat system, but it is proprietary to Studio for the most part.
    It is so far of the beaten path 3D wise, and only one reason why basically no one else has adopted it.
    It's one more "new standard", that isn't standard to anything else.
    It isn't open source either, which never helps if you want it to be a standard that people actually adopt.
    Yes there is an SDK for it, but it still isn't open source.
    In the end, Studio has created a sort of locked market.
    There is nothing wrong with doing so either.

    What really needs to happen, is supporting the vendors that do create Poser content.
    Constantly rehashing that Poser should add Genesis to Poser probably hasn't helped a bit either.
    For all we know, a percentage of Studio users went there after reading threads like this.
    They may have been lead to believe, that Studio is better, and Poser doesn't have it.
    Of course it doesn't, it is not the same program. And Poser has a lot, that isn't in Studio either.
    Maybe they just wanted point and click, like you can do in Poser if you have the right content...

    Again, I have nothing against Studio. It's a cool program and I have posted that many times.
    I don't have a lot for it, but it is still a cool program.
    I have even helped with Studio content, simply because I was asked to look at some issue with it.

    I choose to invest in far more in Poser, and not invest in another company and pray it works.
    Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. But if you look at the big picture, you see far more financial risk than reward.
    Studio is still free, so why pay for a program to use that content when you can just download Studio and off you go?
    That is exactly what some people may have done as well. How many, is anyone's best guess.

    If you want to use Studio content in Poser, the tools are there to do so. In a few different ways as well.
    I know people that do that all the time, and I have done it myself as well. Its not that hard at all.
    Getting content into Poser is supported in Studio, and has been for a long time.
    You don't have to be an advanced user to do so, you just need to watch a tut on Youtube and off you go.

    If you want Poser to continue to thrive, Poser and Poser Content has to be supported.
    That's the bottom line.

    I don't work directly for Poser, and I don't claim to have all the answers.
    But I have been doing the 3D thing for a long time and have seen a very similar scenario's go very south, in a hurry.
    Tying a program to someone else's proprietary code, is sort of like Russian Roulette.
    It might go "click" or it might go "bang". And you have very little control over that.

    /end massive wall of text.
    I think my next pot of coffee needs to be decaf, lol...
    Carry on...


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @matb It's pretty easy to get Genesis 1 & 2 into Poser without using the dson importer. Just export a cr2 from DS. It takes less than 5 minutes and all your morphs come along with it. You might have to rebuild the eye materials in Poser.

    Carrara 8 doesn't even support G3 natively, and that's Daz's own software. So why should Poser be expected to?

    Poser has fbx import/export, which is the same thing you'll have to use if you want to get G3 into any other software. I don't know another package that reads duf files natively aside from DS, but I don't use all the software that's out there. I know Autodesk doesn't. Even Iclone (the only other package in the same market category as DS and Poser) has to convert it first and you don't have the same functionality or bending in Iclone that you do in Poser or DS.

    Texture Transformer is part of Blacksmith3D Pro, available at Renderosity. They didn't release many plugs for it that I'm aware of but you can make your own if you have the pro version.



  • @matb Never said I was using the SM/CP figures, just that Genesis, designed for DAZ Studio, can stay in the program it was designed for.

    And as for those creators producing high-quality content for Genesis, that's nice. I hear Lamborghini produces high-quality cars, but aside from looking at them, I don't pay them much mind because I'm not a customer.

    What Poser NEEDS, instead of trying to shoe-horn Genesis into it, is a well made, diversely morphable figure that takes advantage of the features of the software, and (most importantly) is heavily supported by the merchants and customers. Dawn and Dusk are a start, but haven't gotten enough traction to dethrone the reigning king and queen of Poser figures: Michael 4 and Victoria 4.



  • @AmbientShade said in Pretty pictures are nice but unusable for animations:

    @matb It's pretty easy to get Genesis 1 & 2 into Poser without using the dson importer. Just export a cr2 from DS. It takes less than 5 minutes and all your morphs come along with it. You might have to rebuild the eye materials in Poser.

    Ah, most useful. Didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

    Carrara 8 doesn't even support G3 natively, and that's Daz's own software. So why should Poser be expected to?

    Carrara simply represents a somewhat aborted attempt by DAZ to expand its portfolio, or do a landgrab on the 3D app space. It has always been a tiny sideline. Carrara does not have the figure posing lineage so I would no more expect it to have native G3 figure support than Vue or 3DS.

    Poser has fbx import/export, which is the same thing you'll have to use if you want to get G3 into any other software.

    Again, I'm learning new and fascinating information here. However, would I be correct in assuming that FBX imported files lose all of their pose/editability? A useful option to be be certain, but even if they retain full editability, neither this nor CR2 export are really solutions for the average Poser user.

    Texture Transformer is part of Blacksmith3D Pro, available at Renderosity. They didn't release many plugs for it that I'm aware of but you can make your own if you have the pro version.

    Thank you for the info, but I don't think that' sthe program I was thinking about. Let me go find it...

    Nope, the program I was thinking of was Universal Texture Convertor.



  • @matb UTC is pretty awesome for what it does. It's dead to the developers now but still can be got at Daz. TT is a little finicky but works just as well as UTC. TT will convert for Genesis 1 and 2 I think.



  • @modus0 said in Pretty pictures are nice but unusable for animations:

    What Poser NEEDS, instead of trying to shoe-horn Genesis into it, is a well made, diversely morphable figure that takes advantage of the features of the software, and (most importantly) is heavily supported by the merchants and customers.

    But that's EXACTLY the point! Michael, Victoria, Hiro, David, Stephanie, Girl and Freak have well over a decade of success behind them. Even if SM released fantastic new figures today, it would take years to claw back marketshare from them.
    And that will never happen because it's not in the interests of content creators to invest weeks per item creating clothing for figures that have a tiny share of the market.

    SM complains about the time and investment it gives to Poser without thinking that they would ever make the investment in a decent family of figures as well. They could massively truncate the process of gaining market share in one way, but they never will because they're squamish: they could produce figures that are fully anatmomically correct and posable, with correctly reacting openings, et al. The porn market has a massive role in passively promoting Poser, yet SM actively eschews it. Yet it's clear, even from the images posted here, that many moderate people are creating low level erotica.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @matb said in Pretty pictures are nice but unusable for animations:

    However, would I be correct in assuming that FBX imported files lose all of their pose/editability? A useful option to be be certain, but even if they retain full editability, neither this nor CR2 export are really solutions for the average Poser user.

    Not entirely. FBX figures are still poseable but they don't bring over all the morphs. You would have to export those individually as well. So your better solution is cr2 export if you want all the morphs to come in one swoop. FBX is what most use for game content.

    SM complains about the time and investment it gives to Poser without thinking that they would ever make the investment in a decent family of figures as well. They could massively truncate the process of gaining market share in one way, but they never will because they're squamish: they could produce figures that are fully anatmomically correct and posable, with correctly reacting openings, et al.

    Poser has always included figures that were anatomically correct. Even the P4 baby is anatomically correct. I think the only ones that aren't are Ben and Kate. While Victoria didn't have genitals until V5, and even then it required buying the Pro bundle to get them.

    SM didn't own Poser when most of those older figures were created but they continued the standard of giving their figures all their parts.

    But I agree, Poser needs its own family of quality figures. They have that family in their legacy figures, if they just updated their looks and combined all of them into one set of figures that utilized all of Poser's features then that figure could function virtually the same as Genesis and in some regards even better.

    On UTC, my mistake. I'm not familiar with that one. I thought it was the same as TT.